TheForum

I've been thinking about some things you've said about the deck and some things about the format in general. Vorel's over-performance in my opinion is due to the ability to win without combat. I'm not saying winning with combat is a bad strategy it just is a little more difficult. So with that in mind I have some suggestions for you to consider.

Erebos - You need to do damage, lifegain is your enemy, and he also has a draw engine for when you are gaining life. Not sure why you aren't playing him.

Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - I know I bring this up a lot but there is a ton of search effects and 10 damage plus sac-ing a creature can be huge especially early. He makes things like tutors to recover/find an out, ramping with spells, even evolving wilds painful for your opponents. Searching a library is so powerful and so many decks do it that damage can add up. Whether he deals the damage or slows people down I think he is worth the inclusion.

Aggravated Assault - More combats = more Kaalia triggers = more opportunities to be oppressive = more winning. Other repeatable extra combats include: World at War (done twice), Waves of Aggression (twice), Scourge of the Throne (Dragon with a less good Aurelia effect).

Teferi's Protection - Avoid crack-backs, team ups and board wipes. Gotta keep your creatures on the board, this does it.

Faith's Reward - could be huge after getting wiped. You need those creatures so get them right back. Similar effects can be achieved with Twilight Shepherd (returns all cards to hand), Second Sunrise (returns all permanents for all players to play), No Rest for the Wicked (returns creatures to hand).

Platinum Angel - Has to be answered if any of us want to win.

Maybe considerations:

Ways to make more mana (ie Cabal coffers + Urborg, or Nykthos since you have the ability to have a ton of pips of one of your colors, etc) and some kind of X spell (Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless) so you can finish people off in one fell swoop.

Dictate of Erebos - Good black card for creature decks.

Anyway the deck is good and wins plenty but you do have a tendency to get out ahead and then be THE threat because you can put out ridiculous creatures on turn 3-4. So you need ways to stay ahead and I think some of the ideas could really improve your ability to keep the lead.

-Bill

This is a very intriguing card to build around. Commander VS just played it and it has some cool tricks.

Some card suggestions in case you didn't think of them:

Repercussion - kind of expensive (money, not CMC) but is a win condition in our meta if you resolve any of your big red sweepers.

Gisela, Blade of Goldnight - Another damage doubler and might be the best boros creature in magic. Was reprinted in M25 so she's down around 4 bucks.

Any (or all) of the 3 mana sweepers - each has their pros: Slagstorm can hit players or creatures, Anger of the Gods exiles if it kills them, and Sweltering Suns can be cycled if the board is full of creatures you can't kill with it. All are great against weenie/token strategies.

And then protection from your own sweepers for FS&SP: Darksteel Plate is down around 5-6 bucks after the reprint in Elves v Inventors, and Magebane Armor is a budget alternative that prevents all non combat damage to the equipped creature.

Glacial Chasm - Gain a ton of life then make it so you can't lose it. You don't need combat.

Having never played the deck (I assume) these are just suggestions if things don't go as planned for you. After seeing a deck like this played though (although Parnell got flooded at the end of the game), it seems super fun and different. I'm excited to see it in person.

-Bill

You can have the Ashes of the Abhorrent I have.

Karlov gets super dangerous super quick.

Thoughts:

Vona, Butcher of Magan - Seems perfect for the deck. Her ability destroys any permanent

Merciless Eviction - On colors, versatile, and as I've discovered destroy effects can be very weak when facing certain things. Also, the flavor.

Bloodbaron of Vizkopa - Potentially a turn 5 (without ramp) 10/10 flying lifelink with protection from the 2 best creature removal colors.

Erebos - Cause he is awesome

-Bill

Karlov has replaced Athreos as commander. Cards I want to supplement this list (in no particular order):

Kabira Crossroads
Seraph Sanctuary
Vault of the Archangel
Serra Ascendant
Auriok Champion
Blood Artist
Crypt Ghast
Twilight Prophet
Archangel of Thune
Lightning Greaves
Darksteel Plate
Authority of the Consuls
Bloodchief Ascension
Ashes of the Abhorrent
Spirit Loop
Anguished Unmaking
Wrath of God
Sublime Exhalation

Cards they'll likely replace are (again in no order):

Kingpin's Pet
Syndic of Tithes
Vampire Nighthawk
Phyrexian Rebirth
Planar Outburst
Bontu's Monument
Mastery of the Unseen
Moonlit Wake
Oblivion Ring
Unquestioned Authority
Vampiric Rites
and probably Capital Punishment (I want to cast it at least once first)

-Mike

You're right about RLoR. He's in.

I listened to an episode of the Commanderin' podcast today and they talked about one of the host's Gishath deck. Here's a link to the decklist:

https://deckstats.net/decks/35612/825573-gishath-lord-of-dinotopia

The deck is crazy pricy but its because he is running original dual lands and Cavern of Souls, so there are also a lot of reasonably priced cards in there. A few cards I would take a look at:

Slayers' Stronghold and Flamekin Village - Both haste granting lands and both are going in my dragons deck
Gravity Well- This is like 30 cents and would prevent Kaalia and Dragons from flying over the Dinos and hitting you whenever we want
Chaosphere- Has a similar effect and also makes fliers unable to block the big butt dinos on the ground, its a little more expensive though

Also this is just my opinion, but go buy an Etali NOW and just wreck everyone.

Thanks for the feedback gents, it is much appreciated.

I agree that the first iteration was light on card draw, mana ramp as well, so I've added multiple sources of both. I broke the deck down in a spreadsheet and I now have 12 sources of card draw, so hopefully I should be able to avoid topdecking, but we'll see. I'd love Search for Azcanta but its a bit pricey so it will have to wait for the time being, although it will be one of the first additions in the future.

As for Sam's points:

1) Agreed about countermagic but I have no clue what to cut. Some auras I can flash in for protection and others can blink/phase so there is some built in protection.

2) What Bill said. I never even considered that it would steal other auras but lol thats great.

3) Blue/White aren't too heavy into the haste giving business so artifacts are basically the only route. I may add one of the cards I dumped into the sideboard as well as put Open the Armory back into the deck.

4) If 100% OK with my creatures getting zapped and the auras going to the graveyard. I plan on milling myself so I can have ridiculous swings with Bruna. I have a few sources of recursion outside of Bruna and I also think I need to find a way to find in Emeria Sheperd to give that aspect a boost. But yeah draw engines/recursion will be super important for this deck.

I am concerned about falling into the same trap as Bill's Balan deck in that because I'm so threatening even without a crazy board state, I'll get ganged up on out of fear of the one shot. I have some pillow fort cards in the list to try to mitigate and even have fog bank and another like it in the side board since they could help with Kalia swings and no one is going to waste removal on those weiners. Maybe a Nev's Disc in here too? Any suggestions to help keep me alive would be welcome. Again, the input has been great, thanks guys!

And Balan is way more threatening, attack Bill.

Bruna's ability negates shroud since it is her ability attaching the auras and not casting them. I can't imagine Eric will ever cast an aura to attach it to Bruna when he can suit her up for free from his graveyard/hand or the battlefield (including stealing any auras we may have).

Bill

Also, Bruna seems way scarier than Balan. Kill Eric first.

I have a few general thoughts here. One, I think you're pretty light on interaction. Counterspells and board wipes are too good not to run a good amount, especially the counters, since you'll want to be holding mana up to protect Bruna. Even spells like Apostle's Blessing or God's Willing/Ajani's Presence can be really useful here. Two, shroud prevents you from enchanting things, so it might not be the best fit here. Three, The boots that give hase are good, but are there other options? Landing Bruna and turning her sideways the same turn is huge, but without haste, I'm not that scared of the sudden blowout. Four, as in any enchantment deck, there's always a chance of a blowout when your stacked creature eats a Doom Blade. So more card draw/engines to compensate never hurt anyone.

Looks crazy though; given how much I hate Balan, I'm probably just going to have to figure out how to kill both of you asap now.

-Sam

Past in Flame could be nuts, and I would consider Battle Hymn too... With an empty board it sucks, but I can see it going bananas sometimes. Also, I think Devil's Playground is good. The one card I don't love is Goblin Assault, because Purphoros is always going to be around and will be your win condition. I imagine you'll fairly rarely want to be attacking with your creatures, and would rather leave them back as chump blockers to help you live while you burn us out (since you're not going to have access to life gain).

I would consider adding:

Ashnod's Altar - you have the ability to burn people out so being able to sac your tokens for 2 mana and then cast a giant X burn spell could be good.

To that end I'd consider another X spell. Maybe Fireball.

Past in Flames - can flashback all of your token generation so you can finish people off

Bill

I agree that you might be light on card draw. I would consider Curiosity and Sram as inclusions. Also, with Bruna you could add Search for Azcanta and dump the Auras and he lands or creatures or whatever you are looking for.

We also have a few cards you might need that you might not expect us to have. Mesa, Bruna, Hyena Umbra, Coastal Tower.

-Bill

Looks fun. I can see that you’ll have win options besides commander damage.

It feels like it might be light on draw, but maybe it’s enough with the tutors and recursion.

You have all of the w/u auras I thought of off the top of my head, but I do want to suggest Sigil of the Empty Throne. It’s an excellent value engine.

death cultist, vampiric rites

This deck is obnoxious but awesome. Athreos is amazing. I have a Kambal you can have by the way.

Budget options you may not have considered: (under $1)
- Doomed Traveler/Dissenter I know the token won't trigger Athreos but cheap CMC and extra value when they die is nice. (Eagles Inquisitor does the same as Traveler for more mana)
- Orzhov Advokist. Makes it so greedy people can't attack you.
- High Priest of Penance
- Carrion Feeder. 1 mana sac outlet that gets bigger.
- Butcher of Malakir. High CMC but it is another Grave Pact effect
- Thraben Inspector. You get to (sorta) draw a card overtime it dies

Less Budget-y Cards: (Under $5)
- Vault of the Archangel. It's one of your favorites
- Teysa, Orzhov Scion. Ridiculous value sac outlet
- Elenda, the Dusk Rose. Crazy value when she dies but high cost for weak initial stats. worth considering I think if her price drops.
- Black Market. Crazy mana generation.
- Cathars' Crusade. You just start dropping giants. (Crazy synergy with Elenda as well)

High Budget eventualities:
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Just plain obnoxious for everyone else.

I'm sure there is no end to value creatures at low CMCs that would allow you to extort the crap out of all of us. Just some ideas I had looking through the deck in case you hadn't thought of them.

-Bill

So let me start by saying I love Gishath and all the shenanigans the dinosaurs can do. And it is already pretty sweet based on how well it performed in its matches. I do have a few ideas for things you could add that could really make the deck terrifying but obviously it is up to you to take the deck in the direction you want.

1. Polyraptor - There are two ways to make infinite Polyraptors: Aether Flash + Polyraptor or Forerunner of the Empire (which can tutor up Polyraptor) + Poly and some kind of Indestructible effect. Aether Flash I think might be worth a spot just for all of your Enrage triggers, they would happen immediately, plus it does it to opponents creature so no one could play a 2 toughness creature (i.e. Kailua, Johira, Zombie Tokens etc). The biggest issue going infinite with Poly however is that it is triggered, so you would have to have a way to stop the triggers otherwise the game would end in a draw. So in the case of Aether Flash you would have to instant speed remove the enchantment and with Forerunner you would have to instant speed kill the Forerunner which would be difficult if it is indestructible. The other issue would be you would need more Haste effects like Fires of Yavimaya or Fervor so you could kill everyone with infinite Polys. It isn't totally necessary and would cause some other deck building changes but it would be fun. Aura Shards could be a good way to stop infinite Polys with Aether Flash.

2. Other than poly there are a bunch of cards you should eventually include in this deck. The Elder Dinos you can cast (Zacama, Zetalpa, Etali, Ghalta), Forerunner if only for the Tutor effect, Towering Altisaur, etc etc.

3. I've changed my opinion on the new Huatli. I think she needs to be in. You could pretty consistently Ultimate her the turn after you play her which means you are drawing a ton of cards because it is enters not cast so Gishath-ed Dinos would draw you cards.

4. Another thing that you could do is run a bunch of extra combat effects. You could run Aurelia, the Warleader as well as cards like Aggravated Assault, Waves of Aggression, World at War (All repeatable extra combats though the last two are only once), among other spells and creatures. This would probably make you want more haste effects as well, we have a Fires of Yavimaya and Fervor is pretty cheap.

5. I think Beastmaster Ascension is better for you than Dictate of Heliod, but both may be worth including if you go the super aggressive route.

6. I don't know if you would have a spot for them but considering how much you hate counterspells, cards like Gaea's Herald, Prowling Serpopard, Leyline of Lifeforce, and Spellbreaker Behemoth would prevent your creatures from being countered (or in the case of Gaea's Herald and the Leyline it would be all creatures).

I imagine you won't be making too many changes for a while but this is just stuff I've wanted to discuss with you but haven't been able to. It is just stuff for you to think about, ideas you may not have thought of with Boy. I hope some of it is helpful at least. Love the deck!

-Bill

The Sign-et is staying in...

I agree that Rise from the Tides is weak. I'm worried about having enough stuff to sac but maybe having more stuff to steal that I can then sac if necessary would be better and something like Mind Grind or Torment would be better in that slot.

Possessed Skaab is in for a similar reason to Rise. Bringing back something like Dread Summons to get more sac creatures but that could also be used on something better. Probably Rite of Replication.

You mentioned Consuming Aberration in the other post and it may still be worth including because it will be huge at first and it has a decent ability for commander but if I bring it back with SG the 4/4 replaces the effect that makes it huge and it would remain a 4/4. And that just ruins so much of the fun of the card... I dunno, might still be worth it for the mill.

Thanks for the help

-Bill

I didn’t have time to closely look at the deck before. I just responded to your card questions. I have a few other comments:

1. I really like most of the cards you picked. I liked your stated direction, but really like how you’re going about it. Seems really strong.

2. That said, I think Rise from the Tides is weak. You only have 20 instants and sorceries, so I’m guessing most of the time you won’t get more than 2-4 zombies. I think you have tons of better options.

3. Possesses Skaab is cool, but the fact that he can’t be Scarab’d lessens his value. Not saying it definitely doesn’t belong, but I don’t think it’s necessarily optimal either.

4. Get rid of the Signet for a Cluestone or something you can pronounce.

-Mike

I’m expecting to rarely, if ever, “attack” with the Defiler. You’re right that the cost of doing so will usually be too steep (as it counts lands as well). However, I think the opportunities to get him back in my hand for another go will be common enough (Phyrexian Reclamation, Haunted Crossroads, Twilight Shepherd, and Angel of Serenity). Otherwise, I think even one good attack with him can still be worth it, as it’s pretty devastating.

I like Lord of Riots too. He just didn’t make the cut this time. I’m not overly impressed with Deathless Angel yet so that spot could be up for grabs. There are other candidates too like Ob Nixilis and Archangel of Thune. Just not ready to switch yet.

-Mike

I think your plan - focus on killing stuff and taking it with SG - is great.

For your questions:

1. Not sure. Caged Sun could still be really good, but you should balance your mana doublers with things to use it with. I love that you’ve included Exsanguinate. More cards like that (like perhaps Torment of Hailfire) could tip the deck even more in favor of keeping Caged Sun.

2. I would prefer Diabolic Revelation over the two mentioned. Paying a little more mana is usually preferable to discarding cards, and having another spell with X in the cost syncs well with all your mana multipliers.

3. Propaganda (and Ghostly Prison) are good value cards, but not the only ways to deter being attacked. Having a prohibitive army of blockers and/or killing your opponents’ best attackers are equally viable options. It can be a good tool for diversifying your defense if you feel like you need it, but I believe you should prioritize a strong board state first because all that stuff on the board can double as threats. Also, in this deck’s case, SG wants things dead and in the graveyard more than it wants them to simply not attack you.

4. Opinions on the cards you mentioned:

Rite of Replication – I like this one. I think with your mana you could often be able to kick it. This is a potential bomb.

Phyrexian Metamorph – Could be good, but not sure if it’d be good enough to make the list. Are there enough artifacts you’d want?

Harvester of Souls – I think this is a great card. You’ll almost never regret having more card draw.

Mindslicer – I know he didn’t make the cut for my deck after all, but his allure is twofold. 1) It can deter attacks if the attacker doesn’t want to kill it and discard their hand. 2) Discarded creatures are food for SG, and this could stand to discard a lot of them. It’s also nicely costed at 2BB.

Mind Grind – I like the idea. Would Consuming Aberration be better because it’s also a huge threat (and creature for SG)?

Bloodcrazed Paladin – I have one you can use (it’s leaving the Athreos deck), so don’t buy it. It’s a good card for Commander - at least worth considering.

Gonti, Lord of Luxury – Another decent all-around card worth considering, but not necessary.


Like where this is going.

-Mike