TheForum

Master of the Feast in a discard deck is an interesting gamble. If they play a lot of instants, it’s not a good idea, but if they can’t, and you can consistently get them to discard, it could be fine.

I also think discard is your answer to dealing with control. I agree Mogis is a good fit here.

If you’re looking for reliable devotion that helps your control deck, look no further than Underworld Connections.

-Mike

The Curse was just a place holder really. I didn't like the inefficiency of Chandra's Outrage and it was something we ha on hand. But regardless I think I'm going to be takin this back to Zendikar. At some point tonight I'll post a version that goes back that I would like your opinions on.

-Bill

It may. With a Varolz out and the potential for large amounts of mana he could scavenge a ton of creatures. Also with the potential mana ramp of Gyre Sage he could get the Chant out earlier and get more use from it. The biggest drawback in my opinion is it won't work with the Hydras. But I think the card is worth a look at least.

-Bill

I think Master of the Feast would actually be pretty good here. Your speed would limit the ability for your opponent to capitalize on the extra cards and is such a big beater that it would speed up the opponents clock even more.

Eidolon of the Great Revel is a monster the more I think about it. Just crushing fools.

Skullcrack would be pretty good inclusion for a burn spell I think. Because it prevents life gain which while not super prevalent in our meta but basically cripples this deck.

One other creature I would consider is Pyrewald Shaman. It's high power for two mana is pretty good but also it has a repeatable blood rush absolute which could be useful.

-Bill

I think you could also play around opponents control pretty well. If you keep them discarding eventually they will have to dump their control cards. And if you limit playing your threats until you put your opponent on the draw you shouldn't lose creatures very quickly. On that note Duress and Mind Rot are useful cards. I'm not positive there are better options (admittedly I haven't checked) but mind rot can be pretty good if your opponent is actually playing cards. Slaughter Games is also really effective at removing the opponent's answers to your threats. You don't really have to worry about opponent creatures because of the control shell and your creatures being quite large.

On Master of the Feast, it is a big beater, you'll just have to make sure you can mitigate the draw back, maybe including more discard effects or something. I don't know.

-Bill

I’ve never played with the Firedrinker, but I would also be reluctant.

I agree that 4 Fanatics and 0 Merchants would be optimal. The 4 mana vs 5 mana cost is big in a deck with low mana.

I definitely like Herald of Torment over the Flailer. I have played with Master of the Feast, and like mystery person said about the Firedrinker, the drawback can be worse than you think. However, I played it in a slower deck, so maybe you’d expect to win quickly once you got out the Master and give your opponent fewer free draws. Could work.

Eidolon of the Great revel is, well, great. I can tell you from experience, it’s no problem having them in a deck full of other 1-2 drops. All you have to do is save them in your hand until after you cast everything else. In fact, it’s even preferable to get out lots of cheap stuff before. The more the board is tilted in your favor when these hit, the better.

Lastly, a couple burn spells never hurt anyone.

-Mike

Over a very long drawn out game, sure, but when you play it, it's not going to do a lot for six mana. -Boyf

Seconding the "lose the curse" opinion. You just don't have enough creatures to make use of it. Also, Lightning Bolt is good. -Boyf

Yes. In short, there is no great control finisher in B/R, because if you land a Desecration Demon, they will kill it. So I think you want~16 really efficient creatures, like Rakdos, Mogis, Master of the Feast, etc. that can put on pressure turns 2-4, and then the control cards stop your opponents answers. Turn three Master of the Feast into turn 4 Anger of the Gods/Mind Rot is PRETTY good. -Boyf

I don't love Firedrinker Satyr. It's like, "Oh, the drawback isn't that bad," until you play with it a bit, and then it's rough. I do love the thought of Herald of Torment/Master of the Feast. Those guys crush. I would also consider cutting the Gray Merchant package for the Fanatic of Mogis playset, since it's less mana and easier to cast with only one red necessary. And the lifegain is less significant than speed.

I freaking love this deck. It was super difficult to play against since there are lots of possibilities for recursion baked into many of the creatures. Have you considered one or two of Deadbridge Chant? That card would do serious work in this deck since it has so many creatures.

So I'm never sure if vexing devil is good or not. Its potentially four damage for one mana, or its just dead in the water next turn if they let it live. I think you are right in that you have more to gain than to lose, some of those cards you named are gross. I especially like obsidian fire heart and chandra's spitfire.

Even if you stay in Innistrad, I would consider losing the curse of stalked prey. I think you would be better served with an aggressive two drop of more direct damage.

So the synergistic comment is absolutely accurate. The deck came about by my wanting to run Rakdos' Return and not really knowing how to build around it. So I threw in a bunch of removal and discard, and then used a bunch of the sweet black/red cards I wanted a home for. So yeah, pretty rough idea, but I think there is some potential.

I agree that neither Erebos or the Primordial really fit so I can replace them with the Mogii I am removing from Rakdos. I could probably do way better than cards like Duress and Mind Rot, so that would give me some room for some more permanents to make sure I can activate Mogis.

I wanted to have plenty of spot removal and then also ways to protect against decks that go wide, hence the drown in sorrows, bile blights, and rakdos charm.

Wouldn't running fewer threats leave me super vulnerable to my opponents removal? Aetherling is kind of perfect for that, but I don't know if there is an equivalent in black/red.

So I agree that while Mogis fits the flavor, it is not optimal in the deck, which gains two free cards. Dropping one of each of the Fanatic and Grey Merchant gains another two.

Right now I have no way to interact with the opponents board so I like the suggestion of direct damage cards, or possibly a set of dreadbores to fill the four free cards created by dropping the high end creatures.

I've had the Denizen in the deck but as a two-of and it never really performed all that well, but having a full set would make the effect more consistent. Legion Loyalist seems sweet, as does the Eidolon. Im not concerned about my life total, just dealing 20 as quickly as possible.

To that end, what do you all think about Firedrinker Satyr? Could also replace the Flailers with either Herald of Torment or Master of the Feast.

I'm also considering losing the Dark Favors and replacing them with some burn spells.

-E

I think Bill is right on. This deck is curved like a 24-land deck.

I would also suggest focusing more on the deck’s speed and getting smaller. In a fast deck, you want at least 9 cards you can cast on turn 1 (with 9 cards, you should expect to get 1 on average in your opening hand of 7), and at least 9 two-drops you can cast on turn 2 in an empty board. 3 and 4 drops should preferably have immediate impact, or really high damage potential, and I wouldn’t include anything 5 or above, generally speaking.

I like Bill’s card suggestions. Direct damage that can target creatures or players like Lightning Strike and Magma Jet could also be good. Scrying 2 with Magma Jet is always good, too.

-Mike

Even I still think it looks weird to include cards like Viashino Firstblade and Wojek Halberdiers over cards like Boros Reckoner and Boros Charm. But then I play another couple shadow games, and it just works.

First, the haste is key. It keeps your opponent off balance, and can interact or take advantage of cards like Legion Loyalist, Ajani, and Iroas’s passive abilities immediately instead of having to wait (and survive) another turn to attack. Hence Viashino Firstblade over Boros Reckoner. This may not seem like much, but being able to haste in early damage or attack immediately late game with Ajani or Iroas out is huuuuge. This was a major strike against cards like Rakdos Cackler – great early, but terrible late.

Second, Iroas is extremely activatable (as a creature) with these cards. Everything except the Loyalist supplies at least 2 devotion. A turn 4 Iroas can easily be followed by a Spark Trooper or 2 other creatures to wake him up. Legion’s Initiative is great for this too, being more removal-resistant than creatures. I find that 1 mana/1 devotion cards can lead to too many situations where you empty your hand and can’t muster enough devotion for Iroas. The deck can’t draw, and can barely scry, so every card must count. 2 devotion per card seems to work well for Iroas. Hence Wojek Halberdiers over Rakdos Cackler or Boros Charm.

Third, power wins with this deck. Cheap, high power creatures are always good, but here even more so. Ajani, Iroas, and the Loyalist help your creatures get through, and the more power they bring with them, the better. Especially with Ajani’s double strike. This was another plus for the Wojek Halberdiers.

Putting that all together, Ajani and Iroas want creatures with high power that are fast and good sources of devotion. The creatures in this list represent as much of those three things that I could find within a fast curve. This deck is underwhelming without an Ajani, Iroas, or Spark Trooper, but the rest of the deck maximizes their impact. The synergy is strong.

-Mike

I agree with this. I'd say you're right that you don't need a lot of Tanglewurms with the Zeniths (even just 1 is probably enough). And Thrun is fine. It wasn't that I don't think he'd be good here (he's just a good creature period). Just consider the curve and don't go overboard with 3+ mana spells. A deck like this could benefit from a lot of higher cost cards, and the trick will be figuring out how to edit that down to the best possible options.

I know the satchel isn't very good it was just a thought to try and get out more land so that the Elder gets bigger more quickly. I also agree on the Ratchet Bomb/Beast Within critique and am probably better off running Prey Upon and maybe Naturalize. I will also probably through a couple copies of the Silverheart back in but I disagree somewhat on Thrun. While I may not necessarily need Thrun, he is a great creature that is another one that is really hard to deal with. His inclusion would just make the deck better i think. I also, am not sure I need more than 2 Tanglewurms because the Zenith acts as an extra copy of whatever creature I need and can give me a little more flexibility with my creature pool.

-Bill

I really like this deck and holy crap can it be fast. I'm worried you have too many higher costed creatures though to only be running 20 lands. I would either put in a couple more lands or trade the bigger creatures for more aggressive creatures and try to win the game by turn 4-5.

Some creatures I would consider adding:

Legion Loyalist - Hasted one drop that combined with other creatures can be a big swing especially playing a token based deck.
Shadow Alley Denizen - As you play more cheap creatures each turn you can make them harder to stop with intimidate.
Ash Zealot - Efficient 2 drop with bonus graveyard hate
Eidolon of the Great Revel - Super Annoying card and I know it goes both ways but most likely you'll be far enough ahead when you play it that the opponent's recovery effort is crippled.
Tymaret, The Murder King - A pseudo Fling stand in as a consideration when the board gets stalled. This is a less likely inclusion.

One or two Fanatics or Merchants would be fine to keep in as a curve topping late game finisher and one copy of Exava may be worth keeping but I would take out Mogis (and put him in Rak-DOS!!) and the extra copies of the high cost creatures. Maybe even swap out the Tormented Hero for a different one drop.

This deck is really cool and really fast and can even get faster and is and would be the 2nd fastest deck in our meta.

-Bill

I wonder if a single or maybe 2 copies of Dictate of the twin gods would be worth including. I know they cost 5 mana but with is deck it would basically be game over after it hits the board. Especially if Boros Charm was left in. 8 damage to the face for two mana would be silly.

Also, what happened to Rakdos Cackler? I thought that was a great inclusion, wouldn't they be better than the Halberdier? Or is this deck not going for a completely Aggro approach?

-Bill