dknight27

I'm not a big fan of 1 copy of spell pierce in here, as the lack of saturation cuts down on its ability to be effective early game, and once you get into the middle game and beyond it can be a brick sitting in your hand.
Also, this deck is extremely heavy on 2 drops with a thick saturation of 3 drops that really slows down its ability to react in the first few turns, and completely cuts the tempo if you plan on casting a creature on the second or third turn.
Both problems can be solved by switching into some 1 cost blue draw effects like sleight of hand or opt, both of which speed the deck up and give it more tactical consistency.
I'll voice my usual concerns about running 4 snaps, especially in a deck that only runs 20 targets (this build is rather heavy on creatures (not a bad thing)), but I'm fully prepared to be ignored on that one as the majority of MTG players disagree with me.

Just my thoughts.

I was struggling to find other 1 drops to maybe sub in for some fatal pushes, any recommendations?
I've had success with thermo before in similar instant/sorc-heavy decks, I'll test him out and see how much damage he can contribute, but in a couple red/white/blue control builds he has been pretty devastating for me

Some creature control (fatal push, go for the throat, etc) would definitely be helpful

I dont see it being a problem with no man lands and the relatively tight curve we've got here

I don't like 25 lands in this deck. Even with the wilds thinning things out that seems excessive. You should be able to get by with 23 realistically in my opinion.

I love the idea that monoblack can compete in legacy.

Some of the problems I see in here are as follows:

-problem- the 16 discard sorceries basically guarantee a turn 1 or 2 (or both) discard, which tempos the opponent nicely, but after that they (discard cards) run out of steam quickly. Topdecking them in the middle game and onward is borderline useless, especially since opponent can play instants in response, and in game 2 and 3 opponent can change playstyle considerable to sluice cards onto the field and keep a blank hand or a hand with only instants, effectively murdering 16 of your cards (20 if you count the specters) which is a huge problem.

-solution- one thing that helps tremendously ive found as an outlet for "overtaxed" discard outlets is pack rat, which turns the useless discard cards into win conditions (note, fixes your useless land problem as well), so if you have one it doesn't really matter what you draw

-problem- 4 dark rituals is risky- yes, it gives you a possible turn 1 specter, or turn 1 thoughtseize and hymn, but the advantage there isn't as big as it at first seems. Turn 1 specter uses 2 of your cards to accelerate and takes a turn to take a card away from opponent, so in order to get card advantage from it you have to actually cycle through another turn, giving opponent +1 card to respond to it and a whole other turn before you actually get ahead on the combo (using the dark ritual puts you at -1, so you have to hit with specter twice to be +1), which really gives opponent 2 turns to respond to gain equality (note, 1 drop answers to specter are run in legacy all day long- path, bolt, fatal push, etc). Turn 1 thoughtseize and hymn runs into similar, albeit less worrisome, problems, as it takes 3 of your cards to make opponent discard 3 of his, putting you at +0 with a targeted discard and the chance to rob opponent of lands. That being said, the rob lands factor is high, especially if you drop thoughtseize first, so this option is much better, but it requires 3 cards to group together, which is slim in an opening.
4 rituals also allows you to do a turn 2 obliterator, which is lovely of course, but you run into the same +/- problems as above, in that you will be at -1 and opponent will either have +2 or 3 cards to respond to negate the combo, meaning that he will have 9 or 10 cards (1/6 of his deck) to undo the threat before it even starts rolling, making it less valuable as a credible threat.
On top of all of this, once you get past turn 4 or 5 ish, its a complete dead draw as this deck's curve is minimal and tombstalker is gunna have no problem delving. Which brings your decks possible dead draw total to 20 (discard and ritual becoming less useful/useless once both players are out of the opening).

-solution- pack rat helps to fix this for the same reasons as above, but honestly I wouldn't even bother running it, especially with the tendency for legacy to feature endless counter stuff without paying a mana cost effects like force of will, which will nuke your chances. Yes, it is gunna take away your turn 1 madness, but since youre running currently 12 turn 1 discard options (virtually guaranteeing you will have one in the opening hand), you retain significant tempo to start the game anyway, so fixing the possible dead draw/card advantage problems by dropping it is worth considering.

-problem- your curve is actually slightly off. You're currently running only 8 2-drops, but its actually lower because malakir wants to be a 3 drop (although can function without it if necessary), so really you only have hymn to play turn 2, which cuts down on the decks tempo gaining greatly (this holds true even if you keep the rituals because you will use them turn 1). In addition, your creature base is heavily 3 drops and up, meaning youre giving opponent time to recover from your turn 1/2 discard before you are actually up and running on a win condition, which is a problem.

-solution- consider swapping out specter or nighthawk (or both) for gifted aetherborn/dark confidant/bitterblossom. Yes, confidant and blossom cost a pretty penny, so that might not be an option, but aetherborn still goes for cheap and is a faster and realistically more useful card in your deck than nighthawk because you can drop it turn 2 and start the clock a runnin, and in legacy the lack of flying will be less worrysome.

-problem- your curve is low enough to be ok with 20 lands, especially if you swap into some of the suggestions above, but I would want to see at least a few more fetch lands to really grind the consistency of this deck into gear. Again, they are a touch expensive, so no worries if its not an option.

-solution- optional

-problem- you barely have any direct interaction for boardstate, which is ok because youre trying to stop it with discard, but if opponent slips anything by you its gunna be hard to deal with

-solution- swapping out rituals and cutting into the 3 drops for 2 drops will speed the deck up/make it more consistent which should minimize this potential badness.

Just my thoughs

solid, does both things you want and is basically the best topdeck youre gunna get, and doesn't affect your curve too much

Ah, the death of the probe. She was great while she lasted, and a common at that.
Honestly I would consider cutting blue altogether as you're only running the 4 cards and it ups the chance of a mulligan, which would be hard to deal with in a deck with less than 20 lands. Maybe up the thoughtseize to 4 (ups the info with the loss of peek) and maybe 3 path to exiles, or 3 inquisitions? Maybe even a copy or two of dismember if you really want to bleed.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of mutagenic growth or temur battle rage in here.

I know the growth bleeds you, sneaks in some damage, and fodders your grave for delving, but even if you double strike the damage it gives I'm not sure its worth the spot since it doesn't generate direct advantage and relies on a variety of circumstances. This is further compacted because there are only 3 direct control cards (thoughtseize) and only a few possible preventative acts (bauble, peek), meaning that you could commit the growth and then face a terminate/path/etc. and be down 2 to 1 with a loss of tempo, which would devastate.

I have similar problems with battle rage, in that its conditional and contains the possibility of committing too much to 1 creature, especially game 2 and 3.

That being said, I think this looks solid. Slip through space seems like it might find a home in this deck, possibly as a substitute for battle rage? Replaces itself and bypasses annoying blockers gaining you a tempo and damage for 1 mana that can also be topdecked into replacing itself if you dont' have the proper circumstances.

Although, I don't see a blue source of mana in here.

I love what you're doing here.

How does lingering souls work with copter? I assume that's the combo for the copter, but my worry is that it doesn't give enough advantage to justify the spot as its conditional. Personally I go with things like batterskull in that spot, but that's me.

Not sure that the deck needs vault of the archangel as 1- the curve in here is so low so you don't need to run 23 lands, 2- hurts your color output in the early game and stops you from the turn 2 sculler or aetherborn, and 3- gives you conditional advantage in the late middle game when you can hold down a creature(s) and have the open mana to maximize it. It does help even out the confidant drain, but with a curve that basically stops cold at 3 my guess would be that 22 lands would be better.

I'm not a big fan of the 1 copy of zealous persecution, as its not gunna be consistent enough to count on as a game finisher or a nuke against rush mechanics. Perhaps better in the sideboard? Conditionally its a wonderful card.

I have similar thoughts about collective brutality. I prefer the mainboarded blessed alliance, but that's me.

I'm not sure how I feel about liliana in here, but ive never given her any play. How does she pilot?


All of this being said, I believe wholeheartedly that this mechanical setup can and does work, and I'm overjoyed to see sculler get some action. I love the little guy. In my opinion he shouldn't be as cheap as he is by any means. Good work friend, keep it up.

They are cheaper fetch lands that pull unwanted lands from the deck so that 1- you won't draw them mid-late game when you don't need them, and 2- you get a godless or equivalent when you need it early. In general, this mechanic is one of the biggest revolutions in MTG theory, as EVERYONE knows the dread of topdecking a land and thinking, how many more of these bastards are there?!?!?! This helps solve that problem.

Not trying to offend, just wondering if i missed a combo

I see a few potential problems in this deck. You have 7 blink cards and only 4 snaps that you actually want to blink, and only 10 other cards besides blink instants that you can actually snap back, meaning that the chances of having 2 targets for snap (the original and then the first blink) are very low. I would think this would cut down on the consistency quite a bit, especially since you can get similar functions from other cards such as restoration angel, that actually give you other functionality.
I also don't see the need to run 24 lands when this deck's curve is decently low already and you aren't running man lands. You could save a little synergy by running some 1 drop top effects like sleight of hand, serum visions, opt etc. This cuts down on your topdecked lands and still keeps you lethal and dropping lands in the first few turns. They also give you turn 1 plays, and right now you only have 8 active 1 drops to use turn 1 and 4 reactive 1 drops to use in response turn 1.
I can't see mainboarding 3 ghostly prisons working well in a deck like this unless you're in a format that runs heavy fast creatures and basically nothing else. With only 3 you aren't that likely to consistently get it when you need it early-middle game, and topdecking one is a waste once you're out of the early middle game. It also cuts down on potential snap targets, as creature control can be achieved with sorceries/instants that can then be snapped back and don't have to be locked down in an enchantment.
I'm a HUGE fan of running ojutai's command in a snap mechanic (and in general) because it generates positively crazy advantage if you return a snap. Basically you either draw 1 card or counter a creature spell, return a snap, and snap back something fun, giving you +2 and possibly a tempo for the turn, all from 1 card and a snap in the grave. And its a good card without a snap target anyway. Ludicrous.
I also have problems running 2 cryptic commands in modern, but I'll save the words because no one else seems to agree with me.

Just my thoughts

I'm seeing some conflicting things here, and the 29 land producers means that you have very little actual material, pretty much all of which is vulnerable to normal removal and control.

Aether vial makes no sense in here to me, especially with so many mana producers. I also see problems with eternity vessel.

Am I missing something here?

Thanks for the interest, I'm pretty happy with it so far.
The best part is that besides fixing the lands and a few tweaks here and there I think this decktype has the potential to be competitively in the same manner as dredge mechanics

The mana curve in this deck is delicious, you have nearly full functionality with just 1 land, so bravo! I also think there are some good themes in here as well, but that being said, I see a few possible problems I'd like to discuss.

stubborn denial doesn't seem like that good of an option to me honestly. It's super conditional and only has 4 cards in the deck that make it a hard counter, making it unreliable, and if you don't have the beast to keep it a hard counter it loses all significance once you get out of the early middle game. Plus you already run 6 discard options and Liliana for a total of 8 ways to stop spells before they connect, so I don't even think its that necessary.

Thought scour might not pack enough punch for the theme here. Gitaxian probe would be perfect but for the ban, so I would think sleight of hand would operate better as it gives you tactical sorting rather than the simple draw and mill and you have the possibility of being stuck at 1 land early on.

How is street wraith working for you? drops the life, grave fodder for delve and tasigur, deck thinning, but borderline useless as a beater (5 mana in a 19 land deck). I have mixed feelings about it. I would almost advise dropping it out and adding more consistent beat options like gurmag (I still wouldn't run 4 garages (clogs early hand))

I'm not sure why lightning bolt isn't sporting 4 copies as it is basically the best removal option for the price you're going to see in this deck, can be snapped back for damage for game, and in general dominates the early game like nobody's business.

Now to the thought that always gives me trouble, the balance of the snap. I know the mtg community is in love with the card, as they should be, but it's my experience that 4 copies is actually detrimental to a deck as it ups the chance of drawing him opening hand which is basically a dead draw until the middlegame. This idea is basically tripled in a deck with 19 lands, as the math is against you having 3 lands available until like turn 6, making it a late middlegame threat and denying you the crucial control elements you need in the opening hand that will lose you the game if you don't have them. That being said, I think 3 copies is the correct balance, as it drops the opening hand odds just enough to let you draw it when you want it rather than having it be a brick.

Just my thoughts, again, I know my snap-theory isn't that popular in a community which preaches "run 4 copies" whenever possible.

Other than that, I love this type of build. Let me know what you think and I would be happy to discuss.

Unfortunately, from my perspective, this deck just doesn't hold up. The combo has a very low chance of going off turn 1, and since you don't have any mana acceleration the evolution won't go off till turn 3 best case, which gives your opponent ample time to have an answer ready to some part of your combo. On top of that, if your combo doesn't go off turn 3, which it almost certainly won't (you need 3 cards, 2 of which have only 4 copies in the deck with no search or acceleration), the deck is incredibly slow and has little to no interaction that can buy you time until your titans hit the field.

If you want to try and make this type of deck go off, you positively have to use tactical acceleration to search out what you need and interaction to stall until it can realistically go off. Cards like abrupt decay, serum visions, sleight of hand, inquisition of kozilek etc. Also, you don't need to run 9 titans when you are pulling them from the deck. 5 should be fine, which gives you more spots for useful cards. Same with the lands. You don't want to hard cast them, so you don't need 23 lands. 21 should be fine.


Just my honest opinion. Not trying to put you down or anything like that. I used to make decks like this. Took me a while to figure out what makes them work.

This is an excellent question and the answer is a big step in a player's journey from novice to intermediate or expert play. The short version of the answer is magic is actually a game of development and sacrifice, and fetch lands are one of the best sets of cards ever made, even taking away their ability to fix mana problems.

You started to answer your own question actually. The main point is that you pull lands out in the early and middle game so that by the endgame you won't be topdecking lands, which loses you the game. Pulling 2 fetch lands in the opening reduces the deck's lands by 4, dropping the stats on drawing lands by a significant amount. If you go first with a deck with 21 lands (pretty standard) and have 5 non-lands and 2 fetch lands, and draw a non-land on your second turn, the math on you drawing a land turn 3 is 17/52 or around 33%. If you draw a non-fetch land on turn 2, the math is 16/52 or 31%. If you draw a fetch land turn 2, the math is 15/52 or 29%.

This reduction in odds is drastically more important than the 2-3 life early and the total 5ish life you will lose by running the fetch lands. If running them gives you 1 non-land card on a draw in the whole game, which statistically it will consistently, then the trade in life is more than worth it. Think of it this way, you are paying <6 life to have the ability to not lose the game by running out of cards.

It's also important to understand that your life total isn't an extremely important factor in the game, which is counterintuitive to most non-competitive players. Firstly, not all decks win by reducing life to 0. Secondly, the concept of reducing life to zero is only achieved through one of 3 ways, all of which can be more easily countered by you having higher card advantage than higher life total.

The first way is the agro way, or attacking with creatures. This requires that the attacking player have control of the board state, meaning he has a way to attack every turn, deal damage, and prevent you from attacking in the same turn cycle. Again, the easiest way to gain control of the board state is with card advantage. If you have more cards than opponent, the math is on your side to have a bigger creature or have a kill card or what have you to gain the board state.

The second way is through a combo or control mechanic that deals damage more slowly than an OTK. The only way to beat this type is to either make your win condition work more quickly than your opponent's win condition or dismantle the opponent's mechanic. Both of which are achieved through card advantage.

The third way is through burn, which requires card advantage to win. Burn mechanics achieve this through fewer lands/search lands, and cards like grim lavamancer that utilize resources for greater card advantage. Again, you beat this mechanic by having more material to throw at the opponent.


Another important concept to understand here is the mana curve and how it shapes the land content of your deck. There are 2 measures you need to take into account when planning a mana curve, the operational curve and the complete curve.

The operational curve is the lowest land value at which your deck can operate, the complete curve is the max amount of lands you want after which any other land drawn is a waste. The lower both curves are, the better your deck is. This centers around the concept that magic is a race for development and completion of a win condition, whatever that condition may be (combo, creatures etc).

Normally, a good deck will have an operational curve of 2 and a complete curve of 4 or 5. Anything higher and you are wasting time and will statistically lose to someone that is running that sort of curve.

For these reasons, cards like terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds aren't worth the paper on which they are printed because they deny you the use of the turn on which you play them. If you actually need the mana they would produce for the turn you would be better off with any land that can tap for mana than the search mechanic. And if you don't need the mana, its a dead draw anyway.

I know this will seem counterintuitive and possibly condescending, but I assure you I'm just trying to explain some of the highest level of play of this game. If you can assimilate this type of strategy into your play you will most definitely level up.

On a side note, this particular deck isn't very good and I wouldn't try and make it work.

I have very mixed feelings about colonnade, which I realize aren't really shared by the rest of the magic community. Here are my thoughts, let me know what you think.

Pros:
1- its a good win condition long term
2- produces mana so fixes mana problems as well
3- is basically immune to sorceries (wrath effects)
4- hard to burn off
5- hard to kill with irregular snipe effects (stuff that kills/exiles non-lands permanents)



Cons:
1- slow, as it comes in tapped and takes 5 other lands to activate
2- draining, the 5 other land requirement means you can't safely start using the manland until you are at 5 lands + whatever your operational curve is (mine is 2, so I would need 7 total lands to be marginally safe in letting it start attacking)
3- loss of tempo/mulligan problem- I hate dropping it turn 1 as it doesn't let me bolt/spell snare/path/sleight of hand which is basically how this deck functions, and it presents the same problem turn 2 (no remand/helix), so I never want to have it in the opening hand, so I never really want to run more than 1 copy. For the same reasons, I don't want to actually give it a land spot as I can't rely on it the turn I draw it and it severely hinders the deck's workings in the first 2 turns. Basically I don't want to draw it at all until I have the operational curve handled and have enough control going that I can afford a dead draw (what it is the turn you draw it (tapped)).



My conclusions: This deck's operational curve is 2, meaning it can do almost everything it needs to with only 2 mana. It also relies on having turn 1 and 2 plays/responses, then holding down the field until a win condition surfaces (which isn't that hard).

So, I don't want to run anything that I rely on for mana that upsets the turn 1/2 balance. I would be ok running 1 copy of colonnade, but in my opinion its very overpriced for the reason's I've stated above. It has caused me to mulligan many times where a regular land would have kept me the hand, and I personally prefer a spell over a land in the 22nd spot (I run 21 lands for decks like this).


All of this being said, I'm not denying its a good card. I just don't personally like how it plays with the type of decks I tend to build.

Thanks for the feedback!

This decktype is one of my favorite, and, in my opinion really gets at what magic should be. No boring combos or silly creatures, just agro that provides control and vice versa, all with a nice helping of speed.

I really like 1 thalia, heretic cathar in here as it will further shut things down and is a remarkable cheap beater on its own that can combo well with the jitte (get counters first, pull them off before damage is dealt to thalia to buff him or -1/-1 the creature).

I'm not that big a fan of flickerwisp in here as I only see stoneforge and revoker as targets.

I try and not run 3 serra avengers even with the vial as they can choke your hand early and only running 2 cuts down on the chances of it being in the opening hand.

I'm also surprised there aren't a few fetch lands to thin out the plains, and that there are 22 lands total. I would personally feel more comfortable with 21 lands and at least 6 fetches, but that's me.

I would also think about running blessed alliance in the side to combat protection stuff and stop combos that summon big creatures fast.

Other than that she looks beautiful. Nice job.