dknight27

35 cents on trollandtoad preordered for dominaria, 50 cents for ixalan, so it should be affordable (I presume).

I'm surprised to see no 1 drop tactical cards in here. Opt goes for 35 cents nowadays

I love the idea going on here. Honestly, my favorite type of build in magic. Control the field and tempo, establish a win condition, resolve the win condition. Its pure, fun, and there are tons of color combos that can do it.

I do see some potential problems in this build, nothing major.

The main problem I see is that there is an imbalance between control cards vs win conditions. lingering souls, luminarch ascension, and myth realized are pure win conditions, meaning they don't really help you gain control until they are firmly established with field position intact. Gearhulk, Gideon, and celestial are combo win conditions that either accelerate or act as control mechanics too. Which means you have 13 win conditions in here (not counting the flashbacked souls), so the math is on you drawing 1 in the opening which should be a dead card that hurts both your development and ability to respond to control mechanics. This is also compounded because you have some good tactical outlet here (opt, spreading seas, azcanta), all of which rotates through cards at a pretty quick rate, cutting down on the slots you actually need to keep available for win conditions.

I'm also seeing the potential for a couple counter swap outs to hit harder and faster on the control end. Remand and Negate should be considered, as remand buys you time and adds tactical control to keep moving through the deck and negate will put a hard stop to everything but creatures (which you have 9 removal outlets to stop). I would consider swapping out spreading seas for remand as its a turn 2 commitment to drop seas and rely on opponent being mana-screwed, whereas remand is reactive and is basically guaranteed to buy you tempo turn 2 and 3.

Fortunately, these two problems fix each other. Drop out a couple win conditions for control elements and you have a quick and sleek control machine.

I suggest losing lingering souls altogether in here. I know it combos wonderfully with supreme verdict, can act as a blocker or a win condition, and gives you 2 waves to tactically get done what you need to get done, but I don't think it fits this build. Souls hits max effect in decks that spam it to the grave like gifts, and you basically don't ever want to drop it turn 3 on games when you're going second, and rarely want to drop it turn 3 when you're on the play as you need to be able to react to opponent having 3 open lands.

I think the gearhulk, 2 colonnades, 4 myth realized, and 2 gideons is more than enough to get the job done in a timely manner. That's 9/60 win conditions with a healthy dose of tactical cards to move through the deck, and 5 of the 9 win conditions double as control elements or acceleration. That's pure synergy right there. Personally, I'm ok with running 3 gearhulks and a couple man lands in a control deck as basically the only win conditions as long as there are good tactical outlets, but that's me. I accept that most people aren't willing to keep it that low. That should give you the room to swap in more counters to keep control until you field your win condition.

Just my thoughts, not trying to tear this build down or anything like that. As I mentioned above, this stuff is my favorite, and I think you are onto something good here. I hadn't considered myth as a potential powerhouse win condition yet.

If you think im wrong about this, by all means tell me. I know im advocating for a card that costs a quarter

I'll definitely think about the storage matrix, oath options. I tossed around some of those ideas, and ill revisit them for sure.

As for emissary, I know its not a popular opinion, but I think it is one of the best "non good" cards in modern, as its interactions with popular decktypes work out very very well. If you're playing against burn, its a turn 2 stall tactic that accelerates when opponent is forced to waste material on it. If you're against control, its a turn 2 clock that accelerates when opponent wastes material on it. Aggro, same deal. Only real problem it has is against combo decks, as most don't run critterrage to murder you, but at least it is a turn 2 clock.

I like this over sakura basically because sakura is useless beyond his chumpblock capacity and the intentional land fetch. a 1/1 isn't a clock, can't hold down against early critters, and it an absolute dead draw out of the middlegame. Emissary is a shitty clock, but still a clock, has the potential to hold down against 2/2's and 3/2's (goblin guide, kitchen finks, etc), and is far less of a dead draw. Yes, its land fetch is conditional, but im not running it specifically for land fetch in here. 22 lands, 4 tactical searches, 4 caryatids means lands shouldn't be a problem in a 3 color deck with 8 fetch lands. Instead, im running it as a turn 2 blocker and/or clock starter that forces opponent to accelerate you and lose material in the process.

Just my thoughts. I've had great success utilizing this idea

I sincerely love this build, and the generations of deck just like it that are now possible that Jace has been unleashed. Nice work.

I really like the builds just like that that are now possible in modern thanks to the Jace-rush. 4 drop control component that doubles as a win condition, a control deck's dream.
I'm not sure 24 lands with no man lands or other mechanic lands is the way to go though, especially since you are basically guaranteed to get a turn 1 discard or tactical outlet (serum visions). I would advise dropping the land count to 23 or 22 and swapping in 2 man lands, creeping tar pit, as alternate win conditions that double as land drops early to get you to the land curve you want. I would also like to see 3 copies or the full set of search for azcanta, as it generates crazy advantage in builds like this and even though its legendary you almost never run into a problem with redundancies as it transforms so you can run the second copy when you draw it, and when you activate the transformed copy the math is on you preventing yourself from ever drawing the other copies.
Just my thoughts

This and burn are pretty much my least favorite decktype. I considered calling it meat grinder

Howdy friend. I like the framework you have going here. Quick question before I give any more feedback. What's the budget on this?

Yep, I tend to agree. He punishes control builds like no other

Agreed, ghost quarter and field of ruin got some consideration in here, but I like both options better in the side as 4 horizon canopies ramps the card advantage into another realm in this build. Playtesting might prove me wrong, but for now I prefer the certain advantage I get with canopy over the conditional advantage of ghost quarter in the main, especially when game 2 they will side in if opponent needs his colonnade as a win condition, etc.

I've run the excavator in other similar builds, and I definitely see his value, but I have a hard time keeping him on the field. He dies to the rule of 3, and I don't want to block off something smaller with him and get him magma jetted (etc), so I've not had too much success with him. He would be a good sub in to help gifts manufacture the combo, so maybe with time I will swing that way, but right now I'm counting on 3 crucibles to be enough to make this deck do what it needs to do with the recycled land mechanic being an addition, not an essential aspect. Who knows though.

As always, thanks for the feedback

Updated version of the deck posted

http://www.mtgvault.com/dknight27/decks/modern-n2o-version-2/

I positively love abrade for exactly the same reason. You basically get 16 sideboard spots. And ya, smash to smithereens is pretty perfect for the theme that's going on here. I'm currently working on the sideboard, and the options look pretty marvelous

Looks pretty solid from an initial look. I love this type of mechanic, especially with the support that's been printed for it in recent sets. Search for Azcanta is perfect, it does whatever you need it to do. Bedlam reveler is right at home in this deck, as is sin prodder.

I do however see a couple things that could be a problem.

Firstly, you are sort of choked with 2 drop cards which is a problem for a deck that needs a turn 1 play and needs to be able to function on only 2 lands for a couple turns. This can not only be easily fixed but also lets you run the wonderful 1 drop blue tactical cards like opt, serum visions, sleight of hand, etc. I would go with opt as the instant speed gives you wonderful options with pyromancer and alchemist. Plus, 4 opts and 4 faithless looting basically guarantees you a turn 1 tactical play which puts this deck over the top. I would consider cutting down izzet charm as it gives you some advantage in the opening with its counter ability, but once both players are developed the counter ability is shut down, the 2 damage to a creature isn't as good as other options, and the draw and discard is already covered by faithless looting and its magnificent flashback abil. So, my thought is swap em out for 4 opts.

I'm not a fan of 4 bedlam revelers in here, especially with only 20 lands and 4 search lands. I know they are gunna hopefully get cast for RR, but since you need 6 instants and sorceries in the grave to do it, it won't be playable until the middle game, meaning you don't want it in the opening hand. Cutting it to 3 will cut down on it choking up the opening hand and make room for another instant/sorcery that will help you cast the other 3. Plus, you never want 2 copies in your hand because playing 1 means losing the other, unlike an instant or sorcery you can cast before reveler to maximize your card advantage.

I like the deep-fiend/kozilek's return combo, both as a card advantage generator and as a nuke with tempo (flash wins all day long). However, with only 2 copies of each I'm not seeing it being that relevant of a combo, and even if it connects you can't make it land without paying a chunk of mana (which this deck doesn't have) or by sacking a creature (which this deck can't really afford (token's don't have cmc to sac off)). Plus, kozilek's return nukes most of the advantage you generate with a lot of your cards (shuts down pyromancer and your token brigade, kills sin prodder). My advice would be to switch them out for 2 torrential gearhulks and 2 sweltering suns. Gearhulk is about the best win condition for control in the history of modern, and sweltering suns is an excellent fast nuke in here that you can cycle off if you don't need it. They both operate independently and work with the overall theme you've got going on. Plus, just picture torrential gearhulk flashing in to snap back electrolyze. 5/6 hits the field, possibly to block something, plus it can attack at end of turn, 2 damage to snipe something or drain opponent for 2, and draw a card. All for 1 gearhulk. I'm in love.

Just my thoughts. The skeleton you've got going here is exactly what you want from a deck like this. I just see a couple possible improvements. Nice job.

Good points all around. I've most definitely been thinking over the bedlam reveler's as heavy hitters and for the delicious hand refill. Swiftspear has also been on my mind, I'll keep working on it.

Here was my thought process with sculler:

turn 1- discard (8 options)
turn 2- sculler (discard) or alchemist (damage machine) or confidant (fuel machine)
turn 3 on- repeat

the double discard option turn 1 and 2 just seemed too tempting as it reverses the "going first card disadvantage" , completely dismantles whatever opponent is doing, and gives you a couple turns with a 2/2 to grind out some damage before opponent can develop a countermeasure. It's quite possible its a little overkill, especially with removal being no problem, but I see this deck having a little trouble against anything that says no, and bombarding opponent's hand early and starting a damage clock should go a long way to solving those problems.



In terms of the sideboard, absolutely the artifact hate is gunna have to be in super saturation. My plan was to vary up the cmc a little so they can't kill em all with 1 chalice

thanks for the feedback guys, this is still a work in progress, but I'm convinced there is at least SOMETHING of value in the theory behind it. I'm also looking heavily at boros charm as a substitute for a little of the removal, as there's so much

Some interesting ideas here. Personally I prefer sculler over maggot because it's a 2/2, so its a turn 2 drop that starts the damage clock running. Ya, unfortunately its an artifact too, so its super easy to remove, but if nothing else it will probably buy me a few turns of tempo as well as force opponent to waste removal on it.

I'm considering the land disbursement. I'd like to run at least 1 copy of each shock land so they are fetchable, but other than that I'm seeing the merit of the fast lands. I'm hesitant to switch to all basics, even if it nukes the chances of land disruption because with so few and the NECESSITY of a turn 1 drop, but maximizing the fast lands over shock sounds good

Thanks for the feedback, I know this is a sticky sort of deck

Yep, that's the idea. This deck looks to maximize the underlying mechanic of all magic, and most games honestly, that if you can mobilize a win condition faster than opponent, your own vulnerability isn't an issue, thus, the most important facet is a combination of speed (tempo) and fuel (card advantage). This deck seeks to maximize both while denying them to opponent, and thus doesn't care that it bleeds life like crazy

Well, the short version of why I built it like this is to try and find a way to "prison" things without running the normal prison meta cards. I don't even think its really possible to prison properly in modern to be honest. I've never had any success with it and I've never played against a modern prison build that has been able to keep up with the rest of modern's heavy hitters. Legacy is a different story, but for modern at least im just currently not seeing it.

That being said, this is a novel concept to me (any variation on a traditional prison build), so I have no idea how it will handle playtesting. But, I see at least potential here, possibly for a new style of prison, what I would fashion as tempo prison, or "stop and frisk" if you prefer.

The idea drawn out more liberally is this: legacy prison works because there are accelerants, particularly in land deployment and mana production, none of which is really available in modern. So, you let opponent respond to your prison effects on time and in many cases get the jump on the effects in the first place. Any fast creature build (merfolk, goblin, naya, etc) is gunna cruise through the first few turns, and with few direct interactions and no acceleration, you won't have the same control you get from a legacy counterpart (per capita). So, this build attempts to address that problem by either denying opponent turn 2 (remand, due respect) or quantum leaping your own turn 2 (explore), and from there keep dying tempo to the opponent while you slam down lands, retain boardstate, and grind into a win condition. This mechanic is also wickedly implemented with the massive tactical control the turn 2 stall cards are, combined with opt and crucible effects, so, while you're building your landbase, you're also moving through your deck at about a 1.75 rate vs opponent, which should, in theory, be enough tactical advantage to keep the tempo-prison running long enough to field a win condition. At least that's my theory.

In terms of the specific problems addressed in your post:

Crucible is a gift in this deck for a couple reasons. Yes the fetch lands are nice, as they up the land dropping ratio (this deck wants to drop a land every single turn if possible), but it also allows for man-land-devastation as you can chump block with them then replay them. And, best of all, horizon canopy and crucible work together to produce a wicked draw engine. Ya, the land hate lands that love crucible are nice for sure, but I'm not interested in busting opponent's duel lands or even their man-lands in this build, just denying tempo and then abusing my own land's return abils.

Due respect in particular sort of sparked my idea for this deck as it is a "sort of" time walk on turn 2 in modern, and isn't as conditional as remand (not reactive). If you draw it outside turn 2, it still replaces itself, so at least in theory, in my mind it's worth testing as a possible turn 2 eater, especially since remand does something similar and explore rounds out the deck's turn 2-themed cards to 12 (20% of the deck), which almost guarantees an opening hand with 1 of them.




Just walking you through my thought process. As I said above, this is positively in beta, so who knows if any of this is on the mark. Just my attempt to try forging a possible new type of control idea in modern. I'll keep kicking around the idea and see what happens. I am, however, positively assured that crucible and horizon canopy will continue to stay at the forefront of my thoughts on deck mechanics, at least in the near future.

Thanks for the feedback, and I totally get where you're coming from. I'm sure from the outside perspective this looks like more of a parole deck than a prison deck, but who knows, maybe there is something here that will be kicked loose with time.

ah, well that's fair.
I'm super bummed that the top has left the building. Did counterbalance hit too hard or something?

Rather bad at human interaction huh? A simple "unfortunately top is banned in legacy now" would have been fine.

I haven't played legacy in a few years now (modern is cheaper), so I guess I missed the banning of the top. Which is a shame, but what can you do.
As for snapcaster, yes cash was a factor, but I actually like gearhulk in here as a win condition (5/6 beater). And, the mana difference isn't really that big a factor from my perspective. Snap will flash back for a 2 drop most of the time (counterspell ideally), so 4 mana vs 6 mana when the 2 extra gets you a solid win condition is an ok trade in my book. Yes, 6 mana is a lot, but I have no intention of casting snap early anyway (need at least 3 lands and a good target in grave), so waiting a few more turns for the win condition that gives tempo and card advantage seems, at least to me in this build, to be a better fit. As I'm running only 3, the math is against me seeing it in the opening hand or any time but the late middle game, and with 22 lands I'm not too concerned about it being a brick. Plus, you can snap back force of will for only 6 mana rather than the 7 you need for snap.
I know this isn't a popular opinion in magic, but I detest having an opening hand with a snap, as its a brick for at least the first 3 turns (cuts down on any opening control which is murder against any combo mechanic with speed or a fast aggro). Just my opinion, I'd rather cut it to 3 spots and transform it into a win condition with gearhulk (overall saves spots and still gives control).

As for fixing the top problem, I'd probably swap in search for azcanta (accelerates the lands, massive card advantage in a build like this, etc).