Bellz76

So what white cards would you add? In your build you have the white for Abzan Ascendancy, Wall of Essence, and Athreos. You think that those 3 cards (12 spots total) would make this deck better? And you feel that those 3 cards are better here than Read the Bones, the Deathdealers, and the combination of Reaper of the Wilds and Flayers?

My problem with your substitutions is that you're taking out several key cards of the deck. The Deathdealers are multi-purpose cards. They are good in any phase of the game: early, mid, or late- and they are very difficult to get rid of if you play them correctly. So combined with the Disowned Ancestor, and Wall of Mulch, they are the early stabilizing cards. The Flayers are to my deck what your Wall of Essence is to yours. My supplementary life gain, but also can turn sideways to get in for damage. And the Reapers act as both offense and defense. Hexproof lets him avoid removal, and the Deathtouch means he isn't going to the graveyard alone. Holds off Siege Rhino by himself with no trample damage, and for one black mana, takes it down. And you need card draw in this deck. Wall of Mulch isn't enough to continue to fuel the threats. In your build, you have the recursion of the Champion as well as the spirit generation from the Ascendancy to keep pumping out threats. I need to keep drawing cards.

I think that the white in your deck makes sense, but I don't think adding the white in mine does- at least not for the same cards that work in yours. That's why my initial thought for cards using white were the Rhino's, Rocs, and Charms... all 4+ toughness fit the theme, and card draw plus counters to act as utility. You're build is def rogue, but I don't think the white cards from your build work here.

Yeah, I've been toying with a build with him and the Dictate for a bit, but haven't had any success. The problem I'm having is with that the cards around it- how to get creature cards in the yard, and what creatures, and how to just stay alive...

But do you think it's worth it to retool this deck to add white? And if so, how is it possible to not include cards like Siege Rhino? A 4\5 body is perfect for the Invocation, and certainly triggers the Bloodsucker. And then I feel like I'm playing a water down Abzan Midrange deck..... *sigh* lol

The white in your deck idea was there from the start and not a G\B deck that's trying to add it, right? I just don't know if the cards you have in your build would be interchangeable enough to make fitting into this deck without this deck being totally overhauled... you know what I mean?

Ugh- after some playtesting, this deck get's blown out by any type of agro.... probably needs some heavy life gain spells in the sideboard...

Minor adjustments- swapped out a forest and a swamp for 2 Evolving Wilds to smooth out the mana, thin the deck, and add a couple more cards in the yard. Also added Stain the Mind to the sideboard.

Still looking for a replacement for the Rats... initial build included Boon Satyrs... not sure how I felt about them. Was thinking of switching the build\ or making a separate build that ran the Temur Sabertooth and Spiteful Returned to bounce and re-bestow the Returned for a consistent heroic trigger... thoughts?

Welcome back! :-) Just thought I'd give you a couple suggestions you may want to consider:

1) Sadly, the Heart-piercer on a death touch creature doesn't work the way you want it to... the Heart-piercer deals the 1 damage, not the creature it's attached to so the creature just takes 1 damage and the death touch isn't activated.

2) With all this death touch, you might want to consider Hunter's Prowess. Gives a creature +3\+3 and trample, and then you draw cards equal to the amount of damage done to the player. Or Warrior's Lesson- let's you give 2 of your creatures "draw cards when damaging an opponent."

3) And along those death touch lines, Heir of the Wild is another card you might want to consider. 2\2 for 1G with death touch and ferocious. (adds +1\+1 when attacking)

4) You might need a little more muscle. You've got a bunch of smaller power death touch guys, but aside from the Sabertooth, not much actual punch... like a Polukranos, for example...

5) I might up the land count to 22... you want to make sure you get that 2nd land w\ the elf, or get to the 3rd land for the Courser...

Hopefully that helps a bit. Either way, happy building :-)

If you're just going to ramp out their cards and make them draw, Dictate of Kruphix and Fascination... just draw and draw and draw...

Yeah know, I hadn't really considered that.... that certainly is true. And I like the Skulker. Maybe it's good to have a threat they have to answer right away or it get's out of control... I'll add him back and see...

There is a Mardu Tokens build that is very similar to this except it runs Raise the Alarm and a few other white cards (Prob Butcher- I can't remember exactly) that works really well. It's just an aggressive deck and the recursion keeping the threats cominig typically puts it over the top. I like this version with the bit of blue though. It's a different spin.

There are definately some good interactions with a bunch of those cards, but what would you switch out to add the white? And do you think that adding the white will make the deck better? How much will it lessen the chance of the turn 2 4\4? It would probably push it to a turn 3 4\4... And what about the mana base? I think switching it to Abzan colors might make it too expensive... What do you think?

Let me tell you what I do really like.... Champion of Stray Souls and Dictate of Erebos. Aside from it being a pair of high casting cost spells, the potential there is really strong. If you could get that combo on line and consistantly... and if you built it with the walls and the Bloodsucker.... every turn you would just switch creatures in the graveyard with creatures on the board... make them sack their team again and again and again all while losing life while you gain life... and if they kill your Champion, you just reload him on top. I may have to explore a build like that...

That's not entirely true. Whereas I certainly agree that using a Plague instead of a destructive revelry is not the most efficent use of mana, you still have access to the tool. No one is going to side board in a Plague vs a Revelry, but with a Land D build, you have that option main deck- 4 times. It's very simular to why people run a one of Reclamation Sage in the main- for that utility.

And you have to consider the target of your Land D spells too. Yes, each land you hit does slow them down, and set them back a turn; however, in the world of 3 and 4 four color mid range decks, you keep hitting the tri-lands and duel lands and they won't just be slowed down, they'll lose the ability to cast spells because they lack a color. And I've used the Plague to hit Coursars, Banishing Lights, Whips, etc with great effect. And unlike a control deck, this type of deck totally punishes a slow draw or low mana hand.

I agree with the reliablity issue- If you're on the play a turn 3 ld spell keeps them at 1 land, with another follow up on 4, and hopefully on 5. 6 you play the Ember Swallower and 7 you Monsterous... but there aren't enough LD spells to consistantly support that. You need the Bramblecrush (or another 4 cc LD spell) to have twelve 4 drop LD spells. Additionally, I think that in a very tempo heavy meta, Land D could be viable.

Also, the benefit of the current LD spells is that they are multi purpose cards. Demolish gets lands and artifacts... the Plague gets land and enchantments. So even if you don't get the optimal draw, they are still useful (although not as efficent) vs other cards like a Whip, or Doomwake, or Coursar, or Ascendency etc. But that's why there has to be better supporting cards, and I'm not sure which, if any, there are.

Switched out the Kearnos for the Dragon-Style Twins and adjusted numbers to include Mind Swipe

I really like the idea of land D, but I don't know if it will work as 4 colors, and I'm not sure if the cards are available to make it work with 3 or 2, and by work I mean work well... I was toying with a build that was Temur, and then looking at a g\b\r\. My initial concern is the lack of land D spells. When there were three 4 drop land D spells, it was mostly viable. I don't know if two is enough. You need to hit the mana dork on 1 or 2 to ensure a T 3 land D spell, followed up by a T4 land D spell. Before rotation I think I was running Demolish, Deso Plague, Bramblecrush, and Frenzied Tilling. But now that half of those cards aren't standard legal, it's making things tough.

My most recent ideas obvioulsy include the Ember Swallower, Demo and the Plague, but then the Nessian Demolok and Destructor Dragon... but the 5 cmc and 6 cmc are just really expensive- they might be too expensive.... even with 4 caryatids and mystics... I was splashing the blue for the Ascendency and Treasure Cruise. The Ascendency makes the Demolok really strong because if they don't pay tribute then they lose a land and if they do, he gains haste and you draw a card... the Ember Swallower draws you a card, and I think I was running the Polis Crusher to also draw a card... it ran ok, but still missing a few cards to really work.

The g\r\b version never really took off... 6 was too much for the land D spell- even if it hits a creature too... I think the Midrange decks are good enough to be able to power through the available land d cards in a deck like this....

yeah, I'd swap them. To go turn 1 Mystic into a turn 2 morph\ Write into Being seems really good... esp if you hit the Hooded Hydra with the Write into Being. If you have that first turn Mystic, every other creature in your deck can be morphed on turn 2..

Here is my current take on a manifest deck:

http://www.mtgvault.com/bellz76/decks/trail-of-secrets-budget/

I'm not sure if you really need the white you have in this build. They do put some manifest guys into play, but they don't really do much. If you want to run white, you should really consider Master of Pearls. He "unmorphs" for 1W and gives all your creatures +2\+2. That will really increase your damage output. I like Sagu Mauler for high damage output... and then you can't target him? Seems pretty good to me.

I think you're going to need at least 22 land- maybe even 24. You have so many CIPT lands that you're starts will always be really slow. I really like the scry effect, esp for the manifest, but 12 is too many. I also think that the Elven Mystic is better in this type of deck because of the large number of potential 3 drops... granted, my build is only 2 colors, but still.

Lastly, I'd add a little card draw in there. You need to be able to move through your deck a little quicker to get to your better cards.

Just a couple ideas for you to consider. Happy Building :-)

I like the combo's. Bloodsoaked Champion and Tymaret are already solid together, but the Prowler adds a nice additional recurring aspect . I would definately try to find space for Hordling Outburst. They give you more sac targets for Tymaret (damage or returning to the hand), as well as keeping up the pressue. I know you're already running a few double cc color spells with Dig, Demise, Jace, and the Elemental, but the Outburst with Tymaret is really strong.

And I'm not sure where your plainswalkers fit into your deck concept. Ashiok is good, but typically in a control build... and Jace is only so-so in general.... additionally, 8 of your 13 creatures can't block, and you have a limited removal package, so it's not likely they will be staying on the board for very long. The King, Champion, and Prowler are all aggressive cards, but then you've got a few control elements that I think dilute the power level of the deck. You might want to consider some other agro cards like Mardu Strike Leader, Mardu Shadowspear, and the Brutal Hordechief instead of the walkers.

You could take a little stress off the mana by running more Treasure Cruise and less Dig Through Time. Also if you decide to go without the Plainswalkers, that takes Jace's UU out of the picture. You can switch out your Hero's Demise for Murderous Cut for almost the same effect and a single B. And it might not be worth the single Bile Blight. If you do make some of these switches, it should be easier to run the Hordeling Outburst. You could go heavy into the B\R portion, but still have enough to splash for the blue for your Negates and Prowler, and plenty discard to fuel the Cruises.

Just some thoughts. Happy building :-)

Yeah, when you mentioned the Sage in a previous comment, it got the wheels turning... it's good against the Whip, Doomwake Giant, Asendency, Chained to the Rocks, Coursar.... yeah, I think that's a really strong play. I think I'll make that change. Good call!

And I really like the Haruspex... I think that's another discussion though- him vs Beastmaster... passive but circumstancial vs triggered. I think he'd be better in a monoblack agro type deck with some sort of recurring creature- like Bloodsoaked Champion- that you just send to his death and then activate to do again next turn. Or running Palace Seige... HA! Or maybe a U\B agro with them and the Bident... take the damage and let us draw a card or block and let us draw a card... lol or something with a couple random pump spells... I don't know if you can brew around him specifically, but maybe as a part of something. But yeah, that card appeals to me as well. I think that the Sage is better in this case since our card draw is pretty solid with the 4 RTB, 3 WoM, and Scry with the Reaper, and he gives us a splash of versatility... but now my wheels are turning for a deck with the Haruspex... lol

Yeah, of the games I played, Abzan was the toughest... but to be honest, I was in the Just for Fun section for MTGO... It did run Rhinos, Caryatids, Coursairs, Charms, and Fleecemane Lions... I didn't feel like I was playing a watered down version so... I did end up losing, but only on time... and just starting game 3.

This deck wrecks sleigh\ mono red... I see a lot of those decks online and never have an issue. It really pays to Outlast a turn 1 Ancestor- if you don't have the T2 Invocation or Wall.... btw- both those turn 2 plays are real trouble for them. And if you hit a game 1 Flayer, you're on easy street. Game 2 you bring in the extra Flayers and the Drown in Sorrow and take out the Dictates and a couple spot removeal spells. I'd like to play against the R\W Agro, because they run heavy removal of the non damage variety... Chain to the Rocks and Valorous Stance seem like trouble.

And yeah, the Bloodsucker late is insane. And if you have some bigger threats on the board to deal with first, he slips under the radar. So now the new question- if he's really good late, do I want to run 4 of him? OR cut him to 3? Or just not play him early? I've found that if he's my T3 play he's usually eating a Magma Jet or Lightning Strike... but then again, this deck does walk the agro\mid range template line pretty close... I mean, it's def midrange, but Deathdealer is an agressive card, and the 4\4 Kin-tree play is an aggressive play... so if I can follow up with a T3 Bloodsucker after 4\4 Kin-tree... that seems like the right play.... I know I don't follow the T2 Death Dealer with the Bloodsucker, but..... ugh- what to do with that spot..... (and don't say beastmaster! :-) lol)

Well, it's just that adding white gives you Abzan colors... and the Rhino's and Rocs synergize well, and the Lion can get to 4 toughness, and the Charms are just good... and all those cards are played in the Abzan decks. I wasn't trying to slight your deck or idea, but when I think of adding white, those cards come to mind because they are some of the best cards in the format AND they fit what the deck is going for. I feel that it's tough to brew a deck that uses rogue cards that's just a slightly different version of one of the T1 decks. For me, that would feel like playing a tweeked version of an Abzan deck instead of 2 color rogue brew. I'm interested in seeing your list, so if you still have it, post a link- or just comment what white cards you would use. I'm all about the discussion (as shown above with my disussion w\ Polis about the Abzan Beastmaster) and potentially improving the deck- and that includes if it meant adding a 3rd color.