Discussion Forum

yes, a creature dies when it has zero toughness, this is not a destroy effect.

Okay, thats what i thought, just wanted to make sure :)

yes however, say you have a creature that the ability to sac its self or another creature then you can do that before it dies.

[QUOTE=vines]yes however, say you have a creature that the ability to sac its self or another creature then you can do that before it dies.[/QUOTE]

this is incorrect, a creature comming into play with 0 toughness dies immediatly and cannot be responded to it.

it doesn't come into play with 0 life. The enchantment makes it 0 so you can sack it. The enchantment's effect is continuous so its placed on the stack first and that instance of the effect doesn't reslove until the spell it is affecting resloves. So you can use an ability to put on the stack and that ability will reslove first. It doesn't work with all abilities only with passive abilities and abilities that don't need to tap the creature. Now if it entered with 0 before it come into play then yeah it would die right off the bat. But only creatures with 0/0 have that problem. However, you can't cast a spell or enchantment that will buff it up it will first before you have a chance to cast any enhancements on it. The only reason a creture sac works is because you are sacing it as he comes in so that's where the stack somes into play. Heartless summoning's effect is put on the stack first and then the creatures' ability. So the creatures' ability will resolves first.

[QUOTE=vines]it doesn't come into play with 0 life. The enchantment makes it 0 so you can sack it. The enchantment's effect is continuous so its placed on the stack first and that instance of the effect doesn't reslove until the spell it is affecting resloves. So you can use an ability to put on the stack and that ability will reslove first. It doesn't work with all abilities only with passive abilities and abilities that don't need to tap the creature. Now if it entered with 0 before it come into play then yeah it would die right off the bat. But only creatures with 0/0 have that problem. However, you can't cast a spell or enchantment that will buff it up it will first before you have a chance to cast any enhancements on it. The only reason a creture sac works is because you are sacing it as he comes in so that's where the stack somes into play. Heartless summoning's effect is put on the stack first and then the creatures' ability. So the creatures' ability will resolves first.[/QUOTE]

The enchantment's effect is a static effect. It's "always on" and does not use the stack. The Myr will enter as a 0/0 and then will die immediately as a state based action before a player is given priority. You cannot sacrifice it since you have to have priority to do that.

I've already said what you just said only better. But the targets has to be in play first before the effect can take place. Affects/abilities have to use the stack in order to know what's happening first. Heartless Summoning's effect is just always being re-put on the stack with each new step/phase. And as your creature comes into play it gives you priority on any skill that creature may have. That allows you to sac a creature within the same step that Heartless Summoning's effect triggers. And they should re-vamp the rules. There be able to have more then one stack at the same time. For example, if two differentn enchantments with lasting effects such as Heartless Summoning were to be affect at the same time their would have to be two stacks.

[QUOTE=vines]I've already said what you just said only better. But the targets has to be in play first before the effect can take place. Affects/abilities have to use the stack in order to know what's happening first. Heartless Summoning's effect is just always being re-put on the stack with each new step/phase. And as your creature comes into play it gives you priority on any skill that creature may have. That allows you to sac a creature within the same step that Heartless Summoning's effect triggers. And they should re-vamp the rules. There be able to have more then one stack at the same time. For example, if two differentn enchantments with lasting effects such as Heartless Summoning were to be affect at the same time their would have to be two stacks.[/QUOTE]

Dude quit it, last warning, _Epsilon_ knows what he's talking about, so do I. His explenation is correct and its what any judge will tell you. If you're confused start a new thread and ask your question but do not claim to know better when you don't.

[QUOTE=vines]Affects/abilities have to use the stack in order to know what's happening first. Heartless Summoning's effect is just always being re-put on the stack with each new step/phase.[/QUOTE]

You actually said the exact opposite of what I said and I believe your confusion is in this part.

Static effects do not use the stack. They actually follow layers which is a different beast entirely and FAR more confusing... Static effects are always on. There is no time that the Myr exists as a 1/1, it enters as a 0/0.

There is a combo here with Myr Retriever x2 for infinite storm count or CITP triggers but not with your example.

Also, see Force of Savagery. Given your understanding of the rules, this would die immediately regardless of the board state.

However, per the oracle rulings on it: 5/1/2007 Yes, Force of Savagery has 0 toughness. It will be put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based action immediately upon entering the battlefield unless an effect puts it onto the battlefield with a counter on it (such as Chorus of the Conclave would) or a static ability boosts its toughness (such as Glorious Anthem would). A triggered or activated ability that boosts toughness won't have its effect fast enough to save it.

That last section applies to effects that use the stack while the underlined section is where Heartless Summoning has an effect. This is the opposite of the above example but because of the static ability of HS, the creature will be put into the graveyard immediately upon entering the battleground before you can do anything else.

That rule needs to be changed. I didn't know about that ruling. You guys could have just said that in the first place.

Well it's an increadibly complex game which is part of the fun but also frustrating if you have to figur it out on your own. I've coached a lot of friends into the game and made good players out of them. Explaining things on a forum however is far more difficult then sitting down with someone and having direct interaction. We don't know what part is confusing you or what you know and what you don't know.

Certain parts of the game like the aforementioned layers is causing confusion even at tournaments where people are expected to know the rules. For instance these days Humility has gained in popularity and there's not 1 tournament that I attend that I don't hear someone call a judge due to confusion regarding layers and humility.

[QUOTE=Seth]Certain parts of the game like the aforementioned layers is causing confusion even at tournaments where people are expected to know the rules. For instance these days Humility has gained in popularity and there's not 1 tournament that I attend that I don't hear someone call a judge due to confusion regarding layers and humility.[/QUOTE]

Wow humility is a crazy card, not to get off the topic you guys were on, but would that even effect cards with entering the battlefield effects, such as emrakul or reiver demon?

that is a great question i would think that a comes into play ability would still activate since humility is blanket effect the creature would need to be on the battlefield to be effected but a comes in play effect would trigger between casting and the card resolving at and odd in between phase and hit the stack and since an effect on the stack can still happen even if the creature it comes from is dead or exiled i would think a effect that specifically states comes into play would still happen but as soon as the creature hit the board it would then be effected by the spell. that may have been long winded and maybe wrong im hoping a more expieriance player can confirm if thats right or not for me ive taken a interest in learning interactions with the rules at a higher level

Yeah it would stop all those types of abilities because the card is entering not as its self but as a 1/1 with no abilities.

[QUOTE=Chewrida]Wow humility is a crazy card, not to get off the topic you guys were on, but would that even effect cards with entering the battlefield effects, such as emrakul or reiver demon?[/QUOTE]

It depends on the wording.

Emrakul does not have an ETB trigger. Her trigger is when you CAST her. It doesn't matter if she resolves or not (she can be "countered" by Venser), if you cast her, the extra turn trigger goes on the stack. However, humility will remove the "if emrakul is placed in a graveyard trigger" which will cause her to be placed in the graveyard (from play) without the shuffle.

Reiver demon would not trigger the wipe because it enters as a 1/1 with no abilities.

However, any creature with an AS it enters the battlefield, rather than WHEN, will still trigger. This will largely be irrelevant since those are mostly clone type effects anyway (although it could still be used to clone a legendary).

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]However, humility will remove the "if emrakul is placed in a graveyard trigger" which will cause her to be placed in the graveyard (from play) without the shuffle. [/QUOTE]

I do believe the shuffle effect will still trigger as it is a put into the graveyard from anywhere trigger. I've actually used it like that to shuffle my library by sneaking in Emrakul with sneak attack with humility on the board, attack with a hasty 1/1 (timestamp), and sacrifice it at end of turn and shuffle my library. My opponent called a judge because he didn't believe my 1/1 emrakul would gain haste and the judge cleared that up with the head judge. I do believe the judge was still there when I shuffled my library back in and he didn't say anything.
As this is a tournament thing I am really interested in the correct answer.

[QUOTE=Seth]I do believe the shuffle effect will still trigger as it is a put into the graveyard from anywhere trigger. I've actually used it like that to shuffle my library by sneaking in Emrakul with sneak attack with humility on the board, attack with a hasty 1/1 (timestamp), and sacrifice it at end of turn and shuffle my library. My opponent called a judge because he didn't believe my 1/1 emrakul would gain haste and the judge cleared that up with the head judge. I do believe the judge was still there when I shuffled my library back in and he didn't say anything.
As this is a tournament thing I am really interested in the correct answer.[/QUOTE]

I believe it should not work simply because when an object goes the graveyard, it uses "last known info" and the last known info was "no abilities". I could be wrong on that since it's a "when" trigger rather than a "dies" trigger. I would have to ask a judge... LOL

Very interesting, no wonder this card causes so much confusion in tournaments. I can see people getting very mad over these rules in tournaments haha

[QUOTE=Chewrida]Very interesting, no wonder this card causes so much confusion in tournaments. I can see people getting very mad over these rules in tournaments haha[/QUOTE]

People don't get mad at tournaments (it happens but its very uncommon as most legacy players are mature smart adults), there's just confusion and the judge clears it up. In belgium the real confusion at tournaments is mostly due to language. Half the country speaks dutch, the other half french and we do get a lot of other language as well like german, italian, spanish. English is the backup language but many don't speak english or barely understand it. This is complicated even more because of non english cards. the french part of belgium plays using french magic cards, the dutch part (like myself) uses english cards.

Unfortunately I don't have any tournaments that play around me unless i'm willing to drive somewhere out of town, which working where i do and the hours that i do makes it pretty tough. If there are any tournaments around me, they aren't anything special because i never know about them, i've heard of like 2 or 3 little tournaments and they are always when i'm working and they definitely aren't what at least you would consider competitive. More a casual feeling. So I haven't really gotten to ever see a fnm or real tournament atmosphere.

I bet it would be fun playing against players from different countries and areas tho, even with the language barrier.

yeah it's fun, but it's also hard work, going 6 to 7, 50 minute rounds with an additional potential 3 rounds (with no time limit) if you T8. That's a long day of deep concentration in a format where 1 mistake costs you the game. And its frustrating when you end up just outside of that T8 and wasted a day, at least that's how it feels to me.
I had a lot of T16 (at 60 to 120 poeple sized tournaments) this year and only 1 T8. Well did I win a bunch of small tournaments this year but that's not really the same thing.


I'm taking a break from competitive magic in 2013, I've given my other hobby (painting) priority and I had to make the choice if I want to get really good at either magic or painting, I don't have time for both. I now attend an art academy for live painting sessions 5 days a weeks (3 hour sessions) on top of my day job, that and I have kids.

As long as i live in the city that i do i doubt i'll ever compete competitively. I'm ok with that, playing magic just for the fun of playing the game is ok with me. I mean i'll build to the best of my ability with the cards i own, but i doubt (unless i get a higher paying job) I'll be dropping hundreds of dollars on individual cards for the sake of winning games at a competitive level.

I have kids too actually haha, so between work and my family I'm fine with, well as you might call it, casual play. Although i do feel a couple of my decks would do pretty well at perhaps a modern tourny, and i could def. build a standard competitive deck, but i'm really not fond of standard.

That's pretty cool with you trying to work on your painting, i saw in another thread you said you drew your profile picture yourself and it's a pretty good painting/drawing. Keep it up, especially since you can make time for everything with kids and work, thats some determination =p