Discussion Forum

I made some tweaks to the main deck and added a sideboard. With Simian Spirit Guide added to the mix, about two thirds of the time you have your opponent at five or under by turn two, and there are many times your opponent can be dead by turn three!

Main Deck is complete (Well three cards are in the mail) Side board added today is very much incomplete.

Thoughts, Suggestions?

Lightning DOES Strike Twice!!! - Dude's *NEW and WAY IMPROVED* 3rd Path to Pain
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=341420

P.S. Kudos to the community, specifically the players at That's Entertainment in Worcester and the active contributors to posts of this forum for many of the new deck ideas this deck uses!

Welcome to Legacy :)

- I can't remember how it was back in the early days of magic but isn't the second mainphase something that was always there but only used by tournament players. It's important to keep your mana open and to play stuff after you attacked so your opponent can't base his blocking decision on the knowledge of what new creatures you might or might not play but it's something people don't bother with in casual play most of the time.

- mono colored decks are indeed rare, You have High Tide, Goblins and combo Elves among the good legacy decks although the even Goblins and Elves often dip a second color.

- As for the need to kill your opponent fast that is typical for the Aggro archetype. It's true that legacy has become increasingly faster over the years. That said something that people who don't know the format don't realize is that games actually take a long time and matches often go into time. The only way to have truely fast games in legacy is to play combo, even aggro isn't that fast unless your opponent isn't protecting himself.


as for your deck:

- Blood Artist seems very bad slowing your deck down a lot and giving you very little in return.

- Simian Spirit Guide and Dark Ritual are usually used by combo decks and not by aggro decks because they'll just help you run out of gas faster. If you play Dark Ritual into Toshiro Umezawa and he gets killed by Swords to plowshares you're a card behind. You really have to avoid these 2 for 1 trades unless it's to do something gamebreaking like playing a turn 1 bloodmoon. That actually wins games. Running into Daze after a dark Ritual + something seems really bad as well.

- Spark Elemental has been outmatched by Hellspark Elemental these days, he's actually very good and worth playing as a 4off

- Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep doesn't seem to be that good and don';t forget that every non basic land is a target for wasteland and can cost you the game.
You are playing 19 land, if your opponent stifle's a fetchland and wastes a non basic land chances are good that you won't see another land before he finishes you off.

- Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle with 19 land, it's not going to happen + it's not a good legacy card. Far to slow.

- You don't need Lavaclaw Reaches. You need 8 to 10 fetchland and 3-4 duals and the rest basics. that's it. The more basics the better.

- Volrath's Stronghold is a card for control decks, it will slow you down early on and like you said, if a deck like yours doesn't win fast it doesn't win.

- Damnation is to slow for legacy. Try Perish instead, that is actually very good with all the green being played.

- Banefire or any fireball effect is always bad unlress you have a combo that generates you infinite mana in the first few turns of the game. Almost every other burn spell up to 3 mana is better then Banefire.
Same goes for your Suffer the Past plan, you can't pay X in a game where your aim should be to goldfish in 4 turns.

- Bump in the Night = bad because it doesn't kill creatures and sometimes you really need that option. Play Chain Lightning or at least Rift Bolt, or both.

my advice: look at other burn decks that did well (Top8) and build your own version with black splash for dark confidant.

Hey Seth,

Yah, i stopped playing my last tourney right around when ice age was released and last i remembered no second main phase then in tourney play.

As far as your ideas, i like your thoughts around the land, so im thinking of dropping the valakut, shinka and lavaclaw reaches. As far as fetchland options, if i have maxed out bloodstained mire's in the deck and im only playin red/black what else would you suggest to get me to eight, nevermind the ten!

I saw the hellspark elemental and i actually have a couple, but my reasoning was at two mana instead of one it would slow me down from bolting people to death. Instead of playing one hell spark elemental i could play a spark elemental and then lets say either a dark ritual, a vexing devil, or lightning bolt and do double the damage of the hellspark. Im sure there is something wrong with this thinking, but that was my logic.

The blood artists surprisingly have been working for me. Like you, i was a disbileaver as well, but as my spark elementals, and vexing devils die, they are damaging my opponent and giving me some life back. I have on occasion just forked bolt them and then the other to my opponent to get me life after they have already done two or three damage to my opponent.

The suffer through the past card, although i have it on the description as a finishing blow, what i have found is that i am actually using them more often than not to disrupt combo decks. There's this one nasty combo these guys do with cabal ritual, dark ritual, lion's eye diamond and some black card that does two damage and they gain two life for every spell played that turn. More often than not im using the suffer through the past not so much to damage them and gain me a few life but more importantly to disrupt this and similar graveyard manip decks and graveyard combo decks.

Not familiar with the perish card, so i'll have to check it out.

As always Seth, thanks for the ideas!

PS Big improvement since the first incarnation of my r/b at least hunh?

happy to help mate!


When playing a 2 color deck people will choose fetchland that fetches only 1 of the two colors they play, best to fetch the color you need the most but usually these will then fetch you a dual and you have your 2 colors anyway.
It's all about decreasing the chance of drawing into more land and getting the color you need turn 1.

Aside from RUG Delver, I'm currently playing Sneak and Tell, which is an UR Combo deck and I play 4 Scalding Tarn, 1 Misty Rainforest, 1 Polluted Delta, 2 Flooded Strand. Most people go with 4 Polluted Delta in this build which is a mistake in my opinion for multiple reasons. First opening with Polluted Delta in legacy says there's a big chance I'm playing combo. While opening with Flooded Strand hints more to a deck like StoneBlade which is control and gives people the illusion they have a few turns to spare (so reason 1 = misinformation).
Second reason for the split is Surgical Extraction, it's a very good card against combo and when they hit your fetchland after you fetched they gain both knowledge of what your holding witch is very importent info and if they hit a fetchland you run 4 times they can potentially mana screw you.

In your build splitting is less essential as most good players won't side in extraction against non combo decks.

That said mono red burn decks these days run 0 fetchland while they used to run as much as they could. The reason no doubt is RUG Delver and Stifle. There are many tempo decks that run stifle right now and making yourself vulnerable to that is better avoided when your deck allows it.

The reason I like Hellspark Elemental is because it's been the card in burn that has been problematic for me every time I faced an opponent playing burn and hellspark.
The reason is that I always play blue heavy decks like most people these days. These decks have spell Pierce, Daze, Spell Snare, Force of Will etc... Hellspark Elemental is basically a creature you need to stop twice and for a blue based deck that is a problem. Basically every spell you can use twice or multiple times is awesome.

The combo deck you were reffering to playing Tendrils of Agony as kill is called either TES (The Epic Storm) or ANT (Ad Nausium Tendrils). The difference is that TES plays a 2 or 3 color (UBr) mana base while ANT adds a 4th or even 5th color for spells like Orims Chant. ANT has a very tricky mana base but is usually faster then TES and more difficult to interact with.

The only option in black you have against Tendrils based combo decks is discard like Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn To Tourach. Ofcourse a turn 1 Sadistic Sacrament will break them too but the chance of you having both dark ritual and Sadistic Sacrament turn 1 on the play isn't all that great. Also if you make it to game 3 and they are on the play they can still win turn 1 or play duress or simular effect themselves (which they usually do) and take your protection away.
In red Pyrostatic Pillar is killer against combo.


Here's my spin on things (Rb burn with Confidant):

the link: http://deck.tk/0Ynq08Nm

4x Dark Confidant
3x HellSpark Elemental
4x Vexing Devil
4x Goblin Guide
4x Keldon Marauders
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Arid Mesa
1x Swamp
6x Mountain
1x Barbarian Ring

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Price of Progress
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike

//Sideboard
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Perish
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage

Well Seth I took a look at your deck and I stole some ideas! Goblin Guide and GrimLava Mancer didn't seem to fit what i was going for (that and i didn't have any lying in the pit). However Keldon Marauders which i wasn't familiar with does seem to fit the mold. I also decided to throw in a few hellspark elementals as well as i can see some benefit to them and will give em a try. I am going to stick with my blood artist theme however, because with the addition of these new creatures, i think the blood artist will have even more use moving forward.

As far as rift bolt i took a look at it, and right now i can't see how it would be any better (if not worse) than the bump in the night card I am currently using. With my dark rituals i can usually get a few of these off in a single turn while with rift bolt i would need to suspend it a turn in order to cast it for one. They are both sorcery's so i get no additional benefit of being able to use it on their turn (also i only have one!) so sticking with the bump in the night.

One additional card i did come accross which is really speeding up the deck especially if i get it in my opening hand or first few draws is quest for pure flame which i also went ahead and added two of those to my deck. Will eventually dwindle down the suffer through past for dark confidants however only got two right now.

Also made some changes with the land and added more basics.

Let me know what you think!

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=341420

Hey Seth,

Nevermind, i figured out the plus to using rift bolt - it targets creatures. My stoney self overlooked that! Thanks for yet another useful tidbit of advice brother!

Hey i was thinking about your comment around the hellspark elemental and its replayability. Do you think i should put some "Punishing Fire" in the deck as well as its has some replayability much like the concept you pointed out with the hellspark. Got two i found in my pit, and could probably obtain another two quickly if it works with the theme. Thoughts, comments?

Hey thoughts on Sudden Spoiling? I know with it being split second i don't believe i would be able to bolt creatures after they become 0/2 however with your rift bolts if they are suspended does that work as they resolve?

So I thought about alot of your comments and made a killer. Just stuck to spells that do three damage and well, by turn four/five its almost guarenteed victory when we have been play testing. Keep it simple stupid, right?!?

Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Ready to head back to the tourney circuit not this weekend but next weekend so still time to tweek!

Lightning DOES Strike Twice!!! - Dude's 3rd Path to Pain (B/R Burn)
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=341420

Sudden Spoiling: split second means you have to let the spell resolve before casting anything else. For instance you cast lightning bolt, then you cast sudden spoiling, sudden spoiling resolves, then your opponent counters lightning bolt. It's only as long as sudden spoiling is on the stack that nothing else can go on the stack.
Also sudden spoiling says creatures become 0/2 until END OF TURN. so you can bolt them all you want after sudden spoiling resolved and before end of turn and they will die.

Punishing Fire: has seen quite a bit of play in legacy less then a year back. It was even banned in modern because it stalled the game so much. It's a very slow strategy but it's effective. They play it in combo with Grove of the Burnwillows. With the recent metashifts it has fallen out of favor somewhat currently.

Your deck:

- Howling Mine to me is a card that says I like my opponent to win.
- Spark Elemental has little extra value over just playing another bolt, Lava Spike for instance if your other good bolt options are already included.
- Instead of incinerate there is Flame Rift which is debatably better.


Good sideboard options:

Sulfuric Vortex: against lifegain decks like decks that play Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull

Pyrostatic Pillar: A card you should concider playing as a full set. It's good against combo elves and Tendrils decks

Extirpate or Surgical Extraction or Grafdigger's Cage are all good options against reanimator and dredge decks

Usually some combination of Hymn To Tourach and Thoughseize and Extirpate give you a pretty good matchup against combo.

Some artifact removal like Smash to Smithereens might be a good idea. You kind'o die to an online Jitte.

[QUOTE=Seth]

Your deck:

- Howling Mine to me is a card that says I like my opponent to win.
- Spark Elemental has little extra value over just playing another bolt, Lava Spike for instance if your other good bolt options are already included.
[/QUOTE]

Lol the reason for the howling mines is i was about fifty bucks shy of two more dark confidants, so had them in there to get me my extra draw until i could afford more. As far as the flame rift i can see how it can be better and worse in different situations than incinerate so with that being said do you think it would make sense to go to two and two or three and three of each and remove spark elemental?

Also thank you for clearifying split second, i was under the impression that once a spell with split second was played that turn, nothing else could be played, but in actuallity if i am understanding you correctly its just an alternative term to the card saying "can't be countered" Almost like Flanking and Bushido are the same thing? Correct?

yes, it's the ultimate can't be countered. It's in fact better then can't be countered because spells on the stack that can't be countered can still be exiled which has the same effect of stopping the spell but isn't technically countering. such spells are time stop and mind brake trap to name a few.
split second freezes the stack until it resolves.

flame rift is often better bcause 2 decks almost never really race at the same time. there's always one player on the defensive and one player on the offensive. Since I've been playing Rug Delver (Canadian Tresh) I've noticed that lots of times my life is at 18 (due to fetching) when the other guy is close to death. It gives me the opportunity to start drawing 2 cards a turn of Sylvan Library when I start to stall.
You'll notice that when playing your deck you'll usually be on the offensive and you can take 4 damage easily.

In other news I just came home frome a friday night legacy tournament where I placed 2d with UW Miracles (Sensei's Divining Top/counterbalance, tons of countrol and the new Terminus en Entreat the Angels). My only loss was to Dredge which in all fairness is made to break control decks. The deck is pretty crazy with a good
matchup against a lot of decks. I might take it to a GPT sunday.

What no deck link for the legacy deck to check out? LOL

Sorry for the lack of response, I've been on vacation with my kids for a week. I'll post my current build once I get a chance, I just got home.

I did play another bigger tournament with the deck last sunday and went 3-3-0, played like a noob. Pretty disappointing. Still I think it's a great deck and it was me that screwed up, not the deck.

Don't you just love operator error? Still knocking the dust off of my playing skills my self.

this is my deck

Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
1 Seaside citadel
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Instants
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 ponder

Sorceries
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB
2 Surgical Extraction
4 grafdiggers cage
2 Path to Exile
2 flusterstorm
3 Humility
2 Pithing Needle

So getting ready to head off to the sunday legacy tournament down at the shop. Decided to go with the elf deck today as I feel the B/R is still running slow. Here's what I'll be working with today:

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=341460

I'll let you know how it goes in a few hours....

So second day back on the tourney circuit and here's how the deck faired:

Loss 0 - 2 (Against Show n Tell Emakrul Combo deck - forget deck name)
Win 2 - 0 (Against Infect)
Loss 2- 0 (against High Tide, and it was a devestating loss at that!)
Loss 1-2 (Against Reanimator)
Win 2 -1 (Against auracrog enchantment combo deck - forget deck name)

With this said I'm trying to get suggestions on the following:

1) Outside of switching to blue, how can i deal with emakrul as i seem to be encountering him quite a bit in tourney play. Criteria is it needs to be done in a green/black deck!

2) Although it seems all the key pieces of my deck are there, im trying to see if i can speed it up with a way to give my creatures haste? Any ideas on an effective way to do this?

3) As far as sideboard, any suggestions on things to add or drop? Im finding I am running into three deck types in the circuit I'm playing in so im trying to get help to deal with the following: Delver, Reanimator, Show n Tell/Emakrul decks, Delver, and some other pretty nasty combo decks. I know I want to drop the akroma memorial, eldrazi monument, All is Dust and Whiteout, but what can i replace them with to deal with the decks I am coming up against?

PLEASE HELP!!!

I'm not even 10% as card-literate as Seth, unless he has some CRAZY good card text-search website he uses, but I did have one suggestion.

You said you wanted haste on your creatures in a G/B deck? What about Concordant Crossroads? Granted it gives your opponent's creatures haste too, but in a green deck I'm assuming you'll have a faster/bigger creature base coming out...

Or there's alwasy Lightning Greaves... using those in my current deck.

I also realize the above post was old but I figured you may still check it.