Discussion Forum

I made some key changes and have it down to 75 cards. Here it is as of now and after player input:

Artifacts:
1 X Lotus Petal
1 X Sol Ring
1 X Nevinyrals's Disk
1 x Zuron Orb

Spells:
2 X Dark Ritual
2 X Song of the Damned
2 X Incinerate
4 X Lightning Bolt
2 X Terminate
1 X Fork
4 X Bloodlust
2 X Bad Moon
1 X Demonic Tutor
2 X Fury Charm
1 X Volcanic Fallout
2 X Drain Life
2 X Bane Fire
1 X Meteor Shower
1 X Suffer the Past
1 X Damnation

Creatures:
2 X Vexing Devil
3 X Spark Elemental
2 X Rathi Trapper
2 X Royal Assassin
2 X Rakdos Ickspitter
1 X Toshiro Umezawa
1 X Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
1 X Olivia Voldaren
1 X Moonveil Dragon
1 X Magus of the Coffers
1 X Stalking Vengance

Planeswalkers:
1 X Chandra Nalaar
1 X Sorin Markov

Lands:
3 X Badlands
2 X Blood Crypt
2 X Graven Cairns
1 X Blackcleave Cliffs
1 X LavaClaw Reaches
1 X Shinka, the bloodsoaked Keep
1 X Sulfourous Springs
1 X Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 X Dwarven Hold
1 X Bottomless Vault
1 X Ghitu Encampment
7 X Swamp
4 X Mountain

Thoughts, comments?

first of use a deckbuilding site to visualize your deck instead of just posting cards. Most people won't even look at your deck if there are multiple cards they don't know. Also posting a build like this gives no deck analysis (mana curve and such) that helps us understand the deck.

here is your deck: http://deck.tk/7wvp2TtR

about the deck itself. It's a very strange build. You say you invested in dual lands which is a good step towards building more competitive decks but the deck itself looks like it is aimed at very casual play.

on the topic of revised dual lands, people play duals like badlands because these duals have basic land types, a badland is a mountain and a swamp. We play these because we play fetchland (Bloodstained Mire for instance) that says "Search your library for a Swamp or Mountain card and put it onto the battlefield". We play fetchland because it fixes the colors we need fast without loosing tempo, that and they thin out land and do wonders with deck manipulation spells like brainstorm and the likes.
Bottom line, you don't play fetchland and that makes a 50$ badlands not much better then a 3$ Dragonskull Summit. Yes badlands are useful for drain life but drain life is a pretty weak spell that doesn't see much play anymore unless you count pauper magic.

That said the deck does look like it could be quite good. The curve is aggressive and you have a lot of control elements going. But it's a complicated deck to understand. Could you explain some of the strategies you have going here. What are some of the typical plays you want to get out of this deck.

Some stuff I'm curious about:

- why 2xDark Ritual, 1 Lotus petal? what's the reasoning here? These are one time tempo boosts. They hurt you in the long run so the only reason to play them would be to win real fast early on and in that case one would assume you would want to max them out.

- why Zuran Orb?

Hi Seth,

Thank you for the feed back. I've been going back and forth on what I am trying to do with this B/R deck. Currently i think I'm moving it towards a direct damage deck. As far as the lotus petal and the dark ritual, my rational was that with these i could accelerate the early part of the game and get some quick hits in, furthermore the lotus petal was in there because i was running into mana issues. After playing the deck however, i can definately see the flaw in these cards, as although i am getting in the quick early hits, i seem to be stalling out before i can kill my opponent. Are there suggestions you would make to either replace these cards with or do away with all together?

As far as the Zuron Orb, i was running into life issues in games that were going past round seven plus as my deck was just running out of gas.

As far as some of the plays that seem to be working with the deck.

- The bloodlust have been a very versatile spell for me either by boosting my haste creatures for an extra bit of damage or by using it in combo with a direct damage spell against large enemy creatures to take them down.

- Toshiro has come in quite a bit of handy via his ability to replay instants from my graveyard, and getting second strikes with spells like terminate and lighting bolt, etc.

- The Stalking Vengance and Lyzolda the Blood Witch have been getting me bonus damage from after my spark elementals, vexing devils (and previously my ball lightnings) attacks, i have been either sacraficing them prior to the end of my turn to get an additional two damage or with the Stalking Vengance getting essentially a double strike when they go to the graveyard.

Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of what im trying to do with my deck. Any suggestions?

So what did i do with all of those black cards i did away with from the deck? I actually made a pretty effective discard deck. Here it is:

Artifacts:

4 X The Rack
1 X Cursed Rack

Spells:
1 X Demonic Tutor
2 X Terror
1 X Quest for the Nihil Stone
2 x Raven's Crime
2 X Dark Ritual
2 X Mind Ravel
1 X Struggle for Sanity
1 X Noggin Whack
1 X Syphon Mind
2 X Hymn to Tourach
2 X Mind Twist
Creatures:

1 X Mesmeric Fiend
2 X Royal Assassin
4 X Mindstab Thrull
1 X Phylactery Lich
3 X Hypnotic Specter
1 X Hollowsage
1 X Abyssal Specter
4 X Sangromancer
1 X Hollowborn Barghest

Planeswalker:

Lilliana of the Vess

Thoughts, Suggestions, Comments?

sorry forgot there are twenty swamps in it as well.

Hi seth,

Gonna take a look at that site you were talking about now. As far as for future posts would you recommend giving a casting cost and brief synopasis of card as well if i want analysis advice or just enter it into that site and provide a link?

Thanks again!

Did i do this right?

[deck="Untitled Deck"]
//Name: B/R Direct Damage - Dudes 3rd Path of Pain
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Zuran Orb
2 Dark Ritual
2 Songs of the Damned
2 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Fork
4 Blood Lust
2 Bad Moon
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Fury Charm
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Drain Life
2 Banefire
1 Meteor Shower
1 Suffer the Past
1 Damnation
2 Vexing Devil
3 Spark Elemental
2 Rathi Trapper
2 Royal Assassin
2 Rakdos Ickspitter
1 Toshiro Umezawa
1 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Moonveil Dragon
1 Magus of the Coffers
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Sorin Markov
3 Badlands
2 Blood Crypt
2 Graven Cairns
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dwarven Hold
1 Bottomless Vault
1 Ghitu Encampment
5 Swamp
6 Mountain
[/deck]

[deck="Untitled Deck"]
//Name: B Discard - Dudes 6th Path of Pain
4 The Rack
1 Cursed Rack
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Terror
1 Quest for the Nihil Stone
2 Raven's Crime
2 Dark Ritual
2 Mind Ravel
1 Struggle for Sanity
1 Noggin Whack
1 Syphon Mind
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Mind Twist
1 Mesmeric Fiend
2 Royal Assassin
4 Mindstab Thrull
1 Phylactery Lich
3 Hypnotic Specter
1 Hollowsage
1 Abyssal Specter
4 Sangromancer
1 Hollowborn Barghest
1 Liliana Vess
20 Swamp
[/deck]

Hi Seth,

I thought about your ideas around the fetchland, and my thoughts were i would prefer to go all duel lands in the deck eventually rather than use the space in the deck for fetch land. Here is my rational around this:

1st with a fetchland like bloodstained mire, it lacks versatility because it can only be used to to go search out a land and it itself doesn't provide me mana even on a colorless level.

2nd I feel if i make the investment into duel lands i can speed up the deck by not only covering my duel mana needs, but also by having all duel lands i wouldn't wast a turn by say playing the fetchland and then going to search out a duel land if they are all duel land to begin with.

Is this erroneious thinking?

[QUOTE=jdudes]Is this erroneious thinking?[/QUOTE]

Partially yes. For casual play in a 2 color deck you could in theory play all dual lands and you'd have a 100% guarantee to have all your colors turn 1.
Now fetchland does help with your running out of gas problem. Good fetchland like bloodstained mire that doesn't slow you down (you play it, fetch a dual at the cost of 1 life and you can immediatly use that dual for mana) and it removes land from your deck. Every time you fetch the chances of drawing into land decrease.
Lets say it is turn 7 and you need to draw into burn to finsih the game, each time you draw into land you loose a turn. Filtering out land is important for that reason.

That said fetchland is mostly important in tournament play, for a 2 color casual deck I would not bother with it myself.
In tournament magic players have to play basic land as well to play around cards like Wasteland, Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Back to Basics and other meta based hate.
That and most decks these days play 3 colors, and you need the correct color as of turn 1 so not playing fetchland isn't and option.
The deck thinning aspect goes so far that poeple play up to 12 fetchland. Then there is the deck manipulation aspect that is just broken in combination with fetchland but again that is not relevant to your deck.

anyway, I got to go, I'll respond to your new post later on.

i never really thought about it from that perspective. thanks for opening my eyes to how it can help with my drawing issues. I think i have four to six, i'm going to give them a go this weekend and see how it goes. Any other suggestions on this deck? I still feel its a bit on the large side...

So below i have the most current versions of my Red/Black Direct Damage deck you all have been helping me with as well as the spinoff deck that came out of this little project. Im still waiting for a few more cards to finish both of them up but i should have them by the weekend and will start play testing the decks again. Was curious if in these current states if there are any additional changes anyone would make. Also any suggestions for sideboards for either of the decks? Thanks for your continued help on this project everyone!

Dark Flames - Dude's 3rd Path to Pain (B/R Direct Damage)
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=341420

What Hand?!? - Dude's 6th Path to Pain (B Discard)
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=341425