Discussion Forum

No offense but how is that deck ever going to work? You play 4 big creatures as only win condition. How do you get that through Mana Leak/Flashfreeze/Dissipate/Doom Blade etc... basically every spell control decks play. Are you going to keep 3 mana open and wait until you have 9 mana to play it and hope they are holding only one spell that can stop you after doing nothing for more then 9 turns? And that's control, I'm sure fast aggro will be a nightmare against this deck.

card choices:

Disperse/Vapor Snag: These are tempo cards. They buy you time at the cost of a card which is a big sacrifice in the long run. If you play tempo cards you must have a fast clock to have them pay off or you loose to card disadvantage.

4x Runechanter's Pike: 4 equipment for 4 creatures. Every turn you don't have a creature on the field these are dead cards. again card disadvantage.

4x Cackling Counterpart: Same thing, every turn you don't have a creature on the field these are dead cards. Card disadvantage!!!

4x Fling: Same thing again!


I mean how many dead cards can one deck have? It's almost like you made this deck as dead as possible on purpose. I'm sure it does well as a goldfish but seriously, it a real game...

It's really hard to see your point through that fog of bad attitude and condescension.

My appologies if my response came over as condescending, it wasn't my intention. I followed your Control build thread which was interesting and now I see you post a deck that you label 'Tournament Quality' that in my opinion just can't work and it supprised me.
I could have said great deck, well done, but rather then doing that I took the time to point out some card selections and the problems that they cause for your deck.

I usually don't take the time to insult people, If I make an effort it's to help and I only do that for people that are active on the forum like yourself. I don't know how else to say what I said. I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my analysis of your deck. If anything I would love for you to point out where I'm wrong so that I learn something. It's what forums are about no?

PS: I'm a big fan of Charmbreaker Devils, so it's not that I don't like your deck concept.

It's not what you said, but how you said it. I understand that some cards can be "dead cards" without the devils on the board and since the devils have such a high casting cost, they're like to be dead for awhile. But you could have said it, while offering solutions, without being sarcastic or condescending.

The deck is listed as Tournament Quality because that's its intention. That doesn't necessarily mean it's up to snuff, yet. That's why I post the decks here: To get constructive input to get it up to Tournament Quality.

So the solution to the problems in the deck that I would think might help it would be to take out a couple copies of each dead card and put in a mix of tempo, burn, control and draw cards.

I was already considering taking out a couple Runechanter's Pikes so those are easily gone. I can also drop two Flings and two Cackling Counterparts.

I have decided I do want to mainboard at least one counter spell. Since I'm running two colors, Mana Leak is the obvious choice. I'm thinkin 4 Mana Leaks and maybe two more cards for card advantage like Divination or possibly another creature like Merfolk Looter.

I could also take another approach by trying to accelerate a bit. Sticking with adding a Merfolk Looter, I could also add some Infernal Plunges and Geosurges. That could make a 3rd turn Devils possible. 4th turn if I want to have enough mana to drop the Devils and hold back a Mana Leak to protect them.

There's nothing sarcastic about what I posted, at all. I stated the holes in your deck and reading my reply over again it's not even condescending, it's just fact. If you can't handle that, I wish you the best of luck with this deck and the rest of your future builds. I won't be looking at them again.

[QUOTE=Seth]There's nothing sarcastic about what I posted, at all. I stated the holes in your deck and reading my reply over again it's not even condescending, it's just fact. If you can't handle that, I wish you the best of luck with this deck and the rest of your future builds. I won't be looking at them again.[/QUOTE]

If you don't see it then you need to re-evaluate your social tact.

[QUOTE=Seth;30190]No offense but how is that deck ever going to work?[/QUOTE]

"No offense", "I don't mean to be rude", "No disrespect". Those phrases are always condescending and always mean the following statement is an attempt to do whatever is you're saying you don't mean to do. If you feel the need to use them then you should rethink what you're trying to say.

[QUOTE]I mean how many dead cards can one deck have? It's almost like you made this deck as dead as possible on purpose. I'm sure it does well as a goldfish but seriously, it a real game...[/QUOTE]

How is that not condescending? That sounds very much like you think you're better without having even seen the deck in a test run.

I appreciate every keystroke of constructive input people give of which you did have plenty and I took into great consideration as shown in my last post, but as a moderator, you should already know how to post constructively without being rude. If you can do that then I look forward to more input should you decide to give it. Otherwise, I'd prefer you didn't waste your time replying because I can't take input serious when it's rude.

English not being my native tongue I was under the impression that saying 'no offense' meant exactly that, a warning that what you are about to say might come over as harsh but it's not said to offend, but rather to help. I said it to clear that up in advance. If of course the reader takes every word one writes as sarcasm it's impossible to communicate.

Anyway lets drop this pointless discussion. I initially thought you were a somewhat experienced player but I was wrong and on top of that your response to my attemt to help you is just childish. If you don't want to learn, fine, I don't care.

For those still interested....

I tried it out in FNM tonight. I dropped after the 2nd round. It won 2 out of the 6 games I played. The first match, I got mana-screwed in a bad way. Two lands for the whole first game and it stalled at four lands during the second game. With the card advantage in the deck, that shouldn't happen. Definitely needs some work. Before the tournament, I made the changes mentioned above. I'll be making a few more and trying it again tomorrow in another Standard tournament.

Even though it wasn't winning often, I had a fun play that drew some attention. My opponent played Army of the Damned and I Reverberated it. I already had a Runechanter's Pike in play and a Fling in my hand with plenty of instants and sorceries in my graveyard. Since the zombies come into play tapped and he had no other creatures, I only needed to attack to win. Had he had anything against the attack, I would have had the Fling as a backup. That was one of the two games I won.

I was able to hold Solar Flare at bay for awhile during two matches, but the deck eventually gave in and I lost. It did win one game against Solar Flare, but there was nothing notable about the game. Just a basic race to who could get there first.

As much as I like the idea, I'm taking the Cackling Counterparts out entirely. For the moment, I have 2 Divinations in their place, but I'm looking for better options. I'm thinking about simplifying the whole thing down to counter-burn except for the obvious necessities.

But I'm also considering Deranged Assistant and/or Merfolk Looter for some card advantage and acceleration.

This is a really fun deck to play so it looks like this is going to become one of the few that turn into a project to develop until it's as fine-tuned as it can get.

Made some significant changes to the deck. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=260942 Check the deck list to see them.

During the tournament tonight, I tried two Manaliths and two Deranged Assistants. I don't really like how the Assistants work in the deck so I've taken them out and put in two more Manaliths.

I also put in two Phyrexian Metamorphs which are good for copying Manaliths if I need more mana, the Devils if I need more threats or anything of an opponent's that might help.

I've taken out the Pikes, but put in two Swiftfoot Boots in their place to protect the Devils and/or the Phyrexian Metamorphs. I'm considering changing them to Darksteel Plates.

I also added Memory's Journey and Runic Repetition, both of which were really helpful. The Manaliths help me pay the Flashback cost of Memory's Journey and Forbidden Alchemy if I need it so I get full use out of them.