Discussion Forum

i dunno, personally i really think undead alch is a card that really blows. it's a card that makes every creature you own, instead of dealing any dmg, makes the opponent mill his cards. by the time you have done 20 dmg and would have won the game, you have milled 20 cards and are 1/3 of the way through milling out his deck. unless your game plan is to use him to build up tokens and then use a doom blade or go for the throat or sacrafice him in some way down the line, then all i can see is him being more of a hinderance then a game winner.

imo i would swap him out for a grave titan or some other token producing zombie or even just throw in those 4 abattoir ghouls you have in your sideboard. imo i would muchhhhhhhhhh rather have the abattoir ghoul then undead alch.

just my two cents.

Your deck is effectively suffocating itself.

Undead Alchemist produces Zombie tokens for every Creature your Opponent puts into their Graveyard from their deck. All you need with Undead Alchemist is lots of Zombies, which then gain the Ability to make your Opponent put cards into their Graveyard from their deck. This will, hopefully, make them eventually have to mill a Creature or two and give you Zombie tokens.

However, you have a pitiful amount of Creatures in your deck. You also run cards like Moan of the Unhallowed and Endless Ranks of the Dead, which are unnecessary and take up space. Endless Ranks of the Dead is actually practically useless if your deck is not Creature-based, because of the way its Ability works.

My advice to you is to pick a theme: Do you want a deck built around Undead Alchemist, or do you want a deck built around Zombie tokens?

Thank you for responding and giving advise!

Ive tried to make the deck token themed and this is what ive come up with:
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=251658

I changed colors of the deck to :manab:/:manag: to be able to have parallel lives in it.

Any other thoughts on what cards to remove and put in? Also if someone wants to describe how to think while making a new deck is also welcome to do so!

The best advice that I can give new players about building their decks is for them to come up with two themes for the deck. Usually they can come up with the first theme, like you have with Zombie tokens.

The problem they have is with the second theme, which is how they imagine the Zombie tokens winning the game. Instead of doing this, they try to throw in all cards related to that first theme and concentrate only on making that theme the biggest part of the deck. Basically, it boils down to the fact that it doesn't matter how many Zombie tokens you make if you don't know what you want to do with them. And no, attacking doesn't count as a strategy.

The fact that you added :manag: to the deck just for Parallel Lives tells me that you're still thinking one-dimensionally. Also, your other :manag: card, Glissa, the Traitor, is useless in your deck. She's meant for a deck with more Artifact cards than you have. Once you narrow down your second theme you'll start to see which cards help your deck and which cards are unnecessary.

[QUOTE]The best advice that I can give new players about building their decks is for them to come up with two themes for the deck. Usually they can come up with the first theme, like you have with Zombie tokens.

The problem they have is with the second theme, which is how they imagine the Zombie tokens winning the game. Instead of doing this, they try to throw in all cards related to that first theme and concentrate only on making that theme the biggest part of the deck. Basically, it boils down to the fact that it doesn't matter how many Zombie tokens you make if you don't know what you want to do with them. And no, attacking doesn't count as a strategy.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so what i get from this is that i should select something to do with the theme ive chosen? For example, Either big creatures or so many tokens that theres no way my oppponen can block them all. There is ofcourse other ways of playing zombie decks. But as you said, this all count as attacking and i cant see any other way :( Can you try giving examples to make me see?

This is how i think:
Ive chosen to use Cemetery Reaper and Adaptive Automaton to buff the token creatures. They also helps the card Endless Ranks of the Dead to be usefull.
I think that Call to the Grave is good when you want to get rid of your oponents creatures; in this case i want to kill off his defenders.
Is it correct to think like that?

Not exactly. You have to keep in mind how your cards work together. For example, Call to the Grave forces your Opponent to put Creatures into their Graveyard and Cemetery Reaper will Exile those Creatures to give you Zombie tokens. It's not only about killing off his or her defenders.

This is synergy: how your cards end up working together. The buffing Ability on Cemetery Reaper is not all that important. It's just an added bonus. Adaptive Automaton doesn't help your deck very much beyond buffing. It does add another Zombie for Endless Ranks of the Dead, however there are better cards out there that are actually Zombies already.

Gravedigger, Vengeful Pharaoh, or Abattoir Ghoul all have a helpful Ability on them. If you have the money for a Mythic Rare, you might also consider Geth, Lord of the Vault, Army of the Damned, or Grimgrin, Corpse-Born.

Cellar Door also works nicely with Cemetery Reaper for forcing your Opponent to put Creatures into their Graveyard so you can Exile them for more Zombie tokens.

As for how to win with the tokens, Unbreathing Horde is a good start. However, when tokens die they don't go into the Graveyard, so the main power of Unbreathing Horde is dependent on how many Zombies you have in play. This is where Endless Ranks of the Dead really shines, because it gives you more Zombies at the start of your turn.

The problem with this, though, is that Unbreathing Horde is the only card in your deck that works together with the Zombie tokens. The rest of them basically just generate tokens. If somebody has a way to wipe the board, such as Day of Judgment, Divine Reckoning, or Blasphemous Act, you don't have very many options to bring you back into the game. Likewise if they have a way to answer your Unbreathing Horde.

Ghoulraiser is a good start to recovery, however like I mentioned before you can't really use it to bring back tokens. And you don't really get to choose what it brings back from your Graveyard. Gravedigger may cost a bit more, but at least it gives you a choice so you can bring back Unbreathing Horde instead of Walking Corpse.

Ultimately, what you want to do with the Zombie tokens is up to you. If I tell you what to do with them then you aren't really building the deck. I am. If you are really struggling with what to do with them, I would suggest moving to a different deck. Maybe tokens just aren't your style.

Thank you for this nice explanation on how to think when building a deck!
Synergy is the word, and i will try my best.

Ive changed the deck and here are my thoughts on it:

Ghoulcaller's Chant and Gravedigger are there to help me get my creatues that die back. Gravedigger is also a zombie and helps Endless Ranks of the Dead.

Cemetery Reaper both buff my zombies and get me more of them. Call to the Grave kills my oponents creatures so Cemetery Reaper can make more tokens.
More zombies makes endless ranks of the dead better.

Skinrender is to weaken their big creatures or kill important ones if they have many creatures on the field. This also help Endless Ranks of the Dead. This card maybe should be put into the sideboard and substituted by Abattoir Ghoul/something else? It is also a zombie.

Diregraf Ghoul is a good one drop that is a zombie. What more can i say?

Unbreathing Horde is there to take advantage of all the zombies that are out.

Batterskull and Lashwrithe gets equiped on tokens to put my other creatures out of danger. If Abattoir Ghoul makes it into the deck then he will be equiped first.

Is this good reasoning? I know its very dependant on one thing and that a board wipe spell will pretty much kill me. On a side note, never acctually seen anyone have a board wipe spell in any of their decks.

[QUOTE]If you have the money for a Mythic Rare, you might also consider Geth, Lord of the Vault, Army of the Damned, or Grimgrin, Corpse-Born.

-DBloch2012[/QUOTE]

I dont have that amount of money, so i cant buy many expensive cards, maybe one. I already own the Batterskull and thats why its there.

Thank you again for bearing with me :D

let me help you out a bit here as well. one big flaw i had when i first first started building decks is the line of thinking "this is a good card, and i have a deck that fits this color so I'll put it in too"

I think thats the case with your batterskull. batterskull is an amazing card don't get me wrong, but also it is very expensive(mana wise), and whats it exactly doing to help this particular deck? if you have all your token pumpers out, your putting on the board a ton of zombies every round. what difference does it make if you have 25 2/2 zombies and a 6/6 zombie? if the 25 zombies hasn't won it for you, then do you think the one 6/6 will?

thats just another lesson in the above poster's mention of synergy, but in this case, it's anti-synergy. batterskull while being an awesome card, is pretty useless in this deck in particular.

what you need to start looking at is this. how can this deck win, if i dont have 25 2/2 zombie tokens on the field or the opponent has some kind of way of stopping all 25 zombies every turn?

perhaps look into a little card i like to call Disciple of Griselbrand but this is only a thought, not meant for you to actually pursue it. you could sac 10 of your 2/2 zombies on a turn(assuming you have 10 mana) and gain 20 life. pretty nifty imo. thats only with me thinking off the top of my head and not actually looking through cards or anything, just a quick example and something to think about.

Okay, thank you for the help!
When i thought about what u said in the post, in particular this:
[QUOTE]how can this deck win, if i dont have 25 2/2 zombie tokens on the field or the opponent has some kind of way of stopping all 25 zombies every turn?
-ErtyJr[/QUOTE]
I was just looking through some cards and i saw this one Hideous Visage. If they have some way of blocking all creatures every turn, why not just make them unblockable? The only problem is if they have a :manab: or artifact deck.
Id also like to find a card (something that stays on the table, like an artifact) that has "sacrifice a creature and do x ammount of dmg to target player" to deal with those kind of decks, but i have no idea if such a card exists.

Thanks again for the help!

your starting to move in the right direction thinking about adding intimidate, but like you said there is still that what if he has a black deck, or artifact. what if you can't attack with your 25 2/2's because he has 26 2/2's and its a mirror? to my thoughts you need something a little more solid. you mentioned sac'ing a creature to do dmg. Skirsdag Cultist but sadly it's red, so no help there here is something really funny i just noticed. having 20 2/2 tokens on the field if you cast Black Sun's Zenith So that all your creatures die. then cast Flesh Allergy that would be 20 dmg.

Once again this isn't something I'm saying you should do, one thing i hate is to tell someone how to play thier deck. What i am trying to do is point out to you cool little combinations and help you to spot stuff like that so you can help yourself build your own deck.

Thank you both for all the help. It has really changed the way i think while making a deck!

I will continue looking for combos so that i may counter those black/artifact decks. So far ive only come up with mortarpod, which basically sucks (i mean :mana2: and sacrifice a creature for 1 dmg? Better than nothing though).

Im thinking of mixing in green so that i may use Glissa's Scorn/Plummet/Creeping Renaissance in the sideboard if they have a creature counter/flying/artifact deck. I would like to have Creeping Corrosion instead of Glissa's Scorn but i dont know if its better; Please tell me your thoughts on this.

I have no clue of how to get by a black deck but artifacts are manageble i feel.
If you want to see what ive come up with so far: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=251658

1) i have a friend who runs zombies and call to the grave is insanely anoying, get two more probrbly takeing out some Moan of the Unhalloweds.
2) why is glissa in yor deck? just remove green entirely for some Rooftop Storms and if your deck doesnt need to be standard then swich Hideous Visage with Lich Lord of Unx he follows all three of your objectives: turning the oponent's graveyard into your own zombies, geting zombies and winning without being blocked.

yes one thing i would stay away from untill you have more experience is a 3 color deck, try and stay at 2 colors or even one untill you have more experience.

[QUOTE=ErtyJr]yes one thing i would stay away from untill you have more experience is a 3 color deck, try and stay at 2 colors or even one untill you have more experience.[/QUOTE]
I totaly agree, once you get into 3+ colors you need things to fetch you the right land or dual lands and thats when it gets realy complex:confused:

once again i implore you to exchange green for blue, green just isnt built for zombies.

[QUOTE]1) i have a friend who runs zombies and call to the grave is insanely anoying, get two more probrbly takeing out some Moan of the Unhalloweds.

-randombum[/QUOTE]

I dont want Call to the Grave in my hand at the begining of the game, i want to pick it up before turn 5-8, and ive experienced that if you have two of something in a deck with 60 cards thats what happen (mostly).

[QUOTE]2) why is glissa in yor deck? just remove green entirely for some Rooftop Storms and if your deck doesnt need to be standard then swich Hideous Visage with Lich Lord of Unx he follows all three of your objectives: turning the oponent's graveyard into your own zombies, geting zombies and winning without being blocked.

-randombum[/QUOTE]

Look at the post above the post ive quoted from and youll see why i have green. Glissa, the Traitor is there just because shes a good zombie creature that i might as well put in there if im going to have green in the deck anyway.

I dont feel Rooftop Storm will help all that much since it costs :manau::mana5: and my creatures are very cheap as it is. Also i can get it at turn 6 as earliest and by that time i can cast two spells at a time (you may notice that i dont have any cards that let me draw cards so i will probably have very few cards in my hand by that time).

About standard, ive made a thread in a forum thats name is "Standard Legal Deck Development" so im going to keep it standard.

Please tell me if im thinking wrong but thats what i see. :)

[QUOTE]yes one thing i would stay away from untill you have more experience is a 3 color deck, try and stay at 2 colors or even one untill you have more experience.

-ErtyJr[/QUOTE]

I am trying to keep it only black, but the only way i saw to deal with artifact/black decks are to mix green in there.

Also, ive thought about what i can use instead of Hideous Visage when in up against artifact/black decks. The answer is once again green and its called "Overrun". Why make them unblockable when you can give them +3/+3 and trample? Though i will keep Hideous Visage in the main deck since its cheaper and let me win the game earlier than Overrun and thus decreasing the chance my opponent will make a comeback.

Thank you all for the advice youve given! im feeling that this deck (and all future) is goin somewhere atleast. ^^

I take back all my bad-mouthing about Unbreathing Horde. At the time, I didn't realize that as long as it gets +1/+1 from Adaptive Automaton or Cemetery Reaper it basically cannot be killed by any type of Damage, and any Ability that has a Damage Trigger like Deathtouch or Lifelink is useless against it. You definitely need them.

There is no real downside to having more copies of Call to the Grave. In fact, if you have two on the Battlefield I believe your Opponent has to Sacrifice two Creature cards on their Upkeep. You definitely want to add more of them. I suggest adding one more. The same goes for Endless Ranks of the Dead. If you have two on the Battlefield, the number of Zombie tokens you get from the first one counts toward the number of Zombie tokens you get from the second one.

Grave Titan and Army of the Damned are just insanely, stupidly good Zombie token generators. You definitely need them. If money is a problem for you, then I guess Moan of the Unhallowed will do for now.

Gravedigger is four Mana (:mana4:) for a 2/2 Creature. It's not as good as I originally thought it was, because it has -2 Power compared to its Mana Cost. Take them out. Ghoulcaller's Chant is one Mana (:mana1:), has the same Ability as Gravedigger, and actually does one better by returning two Zombie cards from your Graveyard to your Hand. You definitely need them.

Last, but not least, I would replace Skinrender with Phyrexian Crusader. The former only gives -1/-1 Counters when it enters the Battlefield, but the latter gives -1/-1 Counters every time it attacks. Plus, it has First Strike, so it deals those -1/-1 Counters before the Creature can deal Damage to it. You definitely need them.

Glissa, the Traitor has a heavy two Green Mana (:manag::manag:) Cost for your Black Mana (:manab:) deck. If you want to keep it in the deck I suggest you turn it into a full-fledged two-color deck, instead of a Black Mana (:manab:) deck with a splash of Green Mana (:manag:) only for Parallel Lives. Also, you would really need to add more Artifact cards to make it worthwhile.

Doom Blade is just stupidly good, to the point where if you run a Black Mana (:manab:) deck you basically need four copies of it. I'm surprised you didn't have any in your list. You definitely need them. Go for the Throat works wonders, too. I prefer it in the sideboard, though, because from what I've seen where I play a lot of decks like to run Wurmcoil Engine. Fewer people play Black Mana (:manab:) cards that are as threatening as that one.

This is what your deck looks like after my revisions:

Artifacts
3x Adaptive Automaton
Creatures
3x Phyrexian Crusader
3x Cemetery Reaper
3x Grave Titan
3x Diregraf Ghoul
3x Unbreathing Horde
Enchantments
3x Call to the Grave
3x Endless Ranks of the Dead
2x Parallel Lives
Lands
3x Woodland Cemetery
21x Swamp
Spells
4x Doom Blade
3x Army of the Damned
3x Ghoulcaller's Chant

[QUOTE]I take back all my bad-mouthing about Unbreathing Horde. At the time, I didn't realize that as long as it gets +1/+1 from Adaptive Automaton or Cemetery Reaper it basically cannot be killed by any type of Damage, and any Ability that has a Damage Trigger like Deathtouch or Lifelink is useless against it. You definitely need them.

-Dbloch2012[/QUOTE]

Yeah, ive played with Unbreathing Horde in a equipment deck and its soo good.


[QUOTE]Grave Titan and Army of the Damned are just insanely, stupidly good Zombie token generators. You definitely need them. If money is a problem for you, then I guess Moan of the Unhallowed will do for now.

-Dbloch2012[/QUOTE]

Money is a problem sadly :(


[QUOTE]Gravedigger is four Mana (:mana4:) for a 2/2 Creature. It's not as good as I originally thought it was, because it has -2 Power compared to its Mana Cost. Take them out. Ghoulcaller's Chant is one Mana (:mana1:), has the same Ability as Gravedigger, and actually does one better by returning two Zombie cards from your Graveyard to your Hand. You definitely need them.

-Dbloch2012[/QUOTE]

The thing is i want a creature that returns things from my graveyard. But if im up against a burn/creature controll deck im goin to put Ghoulcaller's Chant in from my sideboard. But as you said, the card reurns two creatures for :manab: and that might tip the scale to its favour. Ill just have to try it out and see whats best.

[QUOTE]Last, but not least, I would replace Skinrender with Phyrexian Crusader. The former only gives -1/-1 Counters when it enters the Battlefield, but the latter gives -1/-1 Counters every time it attacks. Plus, it has First Strike, so it deals those -1/-1 Counters before the Creature can deal Damage to it. You definitely need them.

-Dbloch2012[/QUOTE]

Why i have Skinrender in there is because its another zombie that can kill a creature with 3 toughness or less or it can make a really good creature so bad he has to sacrifice it to one of my tokens which costs nothing. So its basically a kill spell that gives me a creature (Phyrexian Crusader requires him to block it, so he doesnt fullfill the same role). And i got Go for the Throat (I think that one is better than Doom Blade) and Glissa's Scorn in the sideboard if i need more hardcore kill spells.

[QUOTE]Glissa, the Traitor has a heavy two Green Mana (:manag::manag:) Cost for your Black Mana (:manab:) deck. If you want to keep it in the deck I suggest you turn it into a full-fledged two-color deck, instead of a Black Mana (:manab:) deck with a splash of Green Mana (:manag:) only for Parallel Lives. Also, you would really need to add more Artifact cards to make it worthwhile.

-Dbloch2012[/QUOTE]

Yeah, i mainly got Green Mana (:manag:) because of the sideboard. If i want to mix those card in it will become a Black/Green Mana (:manab::manag:) deck. Parallel Lives and Glissa, the Traitor is just a sideeffect of the sideboard. By the way, Glissa, the Traitor is an awsome zombie creature, for :mana3: you get a 3/3, firststrike, deathtouch, creature.

Lastly, The deck that youve come up with/changed mine to seems to be better than mine. The only questionmark is Phyrexian Crusader. Just put in more kill spells in exchange for him (eg. Dissmember).

Phyrexian Crusader needs an answer, otherwise your Opponent only has five Turns to live. Infect deals Damage to players in the form of Poison Counters. You only need 10 Poison Counters to win the game, and Phyrexian Crusader deals 2 Damage each Turn. Also, Dismember is a horrible removal option for a Black Mana (:manab:) deck. Go for the Throat and Doom Blade are so much better.

The thing with Phyrexian Crusader is that i dont get to choose wich creatre gets the counters on him, but with Skinrender i do. Otherwise, yes, Phyrexian Crusader is MUCH better.

As for Dismember i will trust you since ive got no expeience (and i expect you do) what so ever with that card, and i know Doom Blade/Go for the Throat can just mess some ones combo up.

I dont know what more to change really. I like how it looks. I know there are better decks, but i have many of the cards for this one (economical reasons), and it seems to be able to deal with most types of decks.

More advise is always welcome.

Thank you all! Especially Dbloch2012 and ErtyJr. :)

After reading all the posts, I have to agree with much of the advice. And if you notice, the advice has given you the second theme of your deck.... control. look to control your opponents side of the field while playing for your tokens. if going all black, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, and the other removal spells mentioned are great starts. for green, Beast Within and Naturalize steal the show, though i would only use Naturalize in a sideboard. Also look at Birds of Paradise, which will help with mana ramp and mana fixing. This is only if you're thinking of the B/G route though.