Discussion Forum

Nice concept

Think Twice is awesome if you do most of your playing in your opponents turn. What's not to like about instant speed card draw? It was great during time spiral and it's still just as good, wizards doesn't print much good card draw and this seems better then most.

I don't pretend to know anything about standard so here's some stuff I don't get :

- Grand Abolisher ??? it's a bear, wow. I think you overestimate what it does. The way I see it it does nothing for your deck.

- Why Inkmoth Nexus??? Do you boost this somehow or are you planning on attacking with it 10 turns as a totally seperate clock?

[QUOTE=Seth]Nice concept

Think Twice is awesome if you do most of your playing in your opponents turn. What's not to like about instant speed card draw? It was great during time spiral and it's still just as good, wizards doesn't print much good card draw and this seems better then most.

I don't pretend to know anything about standard so here's some stuff I don't get :

- Grand Abolisher ??? it's a bear, wow. I think you overestimate what it does. The way I see it it does nothing for your deck.

- Why Inkmoth Nexus??? Do you boost this somehow or are you planning on attacking with it 10 turns as a totally seperate clock?[/QUOTE]


I can sort of address those two. Inky is a great 10 turn clock for control vs control match-ups, and to a lesser extent works as a decent chump.

Abolisher was much better pre-rotation, but I agree that it's a bit underwhelming now. Against the right deck it murders, but those 'right decks' are a rare sight now.

I sort of get the slow clock tactic for control but still the fact that it doesn't stack with normal damage hurts. If they get rid of the land at 9 poison it's a lot of wasted energy.

The Abolisher is a strong card in my opinion for older formats that can run aether vial and then combo out. Using it as soft disruption for a non combo deck seems underwhelming.

needs more lands. Like 2-3 more. Control decks always want to hit their land drops, it's important.

yeah, inkmoth is a great card. even when you never attack with it, it's a solid blocker and if needed can / will be a 10 turn clock, which isn't actually that outrageous in a tap down deck.

secondly, i also agree about the overestimating grand abolisher. how afraid are you actually of leaks? and if you're so afraid, why not just shove that in your SB to make room for a 1of venser (works with frost titan very well, as well as sun titan, gideon, o-ring, metamorph, and tumble magnet) and a 3rd frosty? or maybe just 2 vensers, he seems like he would go very well here.

thirdly, some concerns about the deck.
1. your deck really wants ponder or think twice, and very seldom does it want both. i think that if you added onto the card interaction in the deck to provide more options and to replenish what you already have put in place and/or improve upon it, that ponder will be your best choice because you're searching away for something. however, if you're just trying to get CA, i'd rock think twice. that's a general rule for me, but hey, i could be wrong.
2. i feel like your deck relies a bit too heavily on non-replenishable sources. for instance, frost breath only happens once, magnet only happens thrice, and your feeling of dread can only really happen twice. if you're really dedicated to the whole tap-down idea, maybe you should look at replenishable sources of tap-down effects. venser + magnet, swing with frosty, bounce frosty with venser, a bit more mana to help fuel your gideon's lawkeeper (23 is never enough for a control deck anyways), maybe avacynian priest or vedalken anatomist (sp?)? i just feel like you're going to eventually without running 4 day (or any for that matter) mainboard, you'll run out of spells and get overwhelmed the one time they do get to strike.
3. i don't really get why you'd choose a tap-down deck. i men, look. i'll be honest here, i adore playing goofy decks. i've tried so hard to make liquimetal land destruction work it's not even funny, but i feel like this is a bit different. i feel like you might actually legitimately think that tapping down then slowly, VERY slowly, and luckily, hitting your tap down effects in perfect synch with your curve and their level of play, then hitting win cons and pushing through. that doesn't seem all that appealing to me, nor does it sound like exactly a good way to win. there are some decks that can happen, and there are some that can't, completely dependent on the meta where you live, the cards available to build with, and how much time you spend trying to make it work. basically, i can't see this one winning a majority of the time without a LOT of work. the meta isn't suitable well for spell related tapping down, and what not, nor are there really enough cards with flashback to make it happen. i mean, the deck i play right now is the stonehorn-venser deck i created that took hours and hours to make, and now i have to drop 16 cards and am changing it to this. and hell, there aren't cards for a stonehorn venser deck in the meta. xD so anything is possible.
basically, i just am interested to why you want to play the tap-down with spells deck?
4. i feel like with all the token deck ideas floating around, with tempered steel out there, and with all the other aggro decks out there, you're going to have a very tough time without board sweeping effects. i feel like there's too many creatures to not have board sweeping effects if you'd like to win.
5. i think you should have 4 leaks. :)


but hey, all of that is just my 2 cents. :) i could be horribly wrong, and i'm sure i've got a bit of a bias, but i feel like if you're looking for a lock down / prison deck, it'd be a better plan to look one like my new stonehorn deck because it effects the whole board, and that's the sort of thing i expect to see a lot of in the upcoming meta.

Ooo, wow, more replies than I expected. O.o Responding in order of comment prevalence. ALSO, changes have been made to the deck and board, though I'll admit they weren't major.

Abolisher: Pre-rotation at least, he wasn't just for stopping Leaks. Forcing my opponent to do nearly everything on their turn plus preventing them from killing my attackers without blocking was VERY nice. Plus, even at 2-of, he was a surpisingly consistant draw. Now... it's not so much that I'm over-estimating him as I didn't see a reason to take him out of the deck when I was revising it. However, with this many comments on how he's no longer the yield sign he was... We'll see how FNM goes tonight. It might be that my meta still has use of him, or I might need to get rid of him completely.

Inkmoth: It's the lackluster fill-in for the fact that I lost 4 Celestial Colonnades out of the original build. THAT -- and the loss of Sleep and Narcolepsy -- hurt a lot. >.< Inkmoth and the Moorland Haunts are the much smaller stand ins for those beasts. If you think I should take them out, though -- replace them with what? Haunts? GQ's? basics?

NightLoki: While I agree that I need another land or two, 3 would be a bit excessive and require me to remove a bit too much. XD

Sloth: 1. Settling on Ponder because of cost and deck manipulation. TT isn't the right fit for this deck.
2. FoD has the posibility of tapping down 16 creatures. Whether it's a limited use or not, the flashback makes it easily worth the 4-of. Frost Breath, I'll admit, is not Sleep. So, like the Abolisher, it may turn out to be a card that can be replaced. Venser WAS in the original build but, sadly and surprisingly, was not a good fit. Now, maybe he can go back in. I know there's plenty of targets for him, but the timing of drawing him was never good. :/ However, mentioning the other tapper creatures does have me thinking...
3. I like the deck. Simple as that.
4. Possible. Divine Reckoning or DoJ main board might have to happen. I still need to see what the new meta feels like.
5. Also possible. With 4 cards on the "not quite as good as they used to be" list, there could easily be room for it.

I'm not giving up on this deck yet, dammit.

[QUOTE=Mercedes]
1. Settling on Ponder because of cost and deck manipulation. TT isn't the right fit for this deck.
2. FoD has the posibility of tapping down 16 creatures. Whether it's a limited use or not, the flashback makes it easily worth the 4-of. Frost Breath, I'll admit, is not Sleep. So, like the Abolisher, it may turn out to be a card that can be replaced. Venser WAS in the original build but, sadly and surprisingly, was not a good fit. Now, maybe he can go back in. I know there's plenty of targets for him, but the timing of drawing him was never good. :/ However, mentioning the other tapper creatures does have me thinking...
3. I like the deck. Simple as that.
4. Possible. Divine Reckoning or DoJ main board might have to happen. I still need to see what the new meta feels like.
5. Also possible. With 4 cards on the "not quite as good as they used to be" list, there could easily be room for it.

I'm not giving up on this deck yet, dammit.[/QUOTE]

1. I definitely agree with you on that one, if you have more than 2 or 3 cards that work together very well, like you do, then ponder is where it's at. think sunblast + gideon, avenger + gideon, sunblast + lawkeeper, metamorph + sunblast, metamorph + frost titan. it's worth ponder over TT imo.
2. No, i get that that is a good thing. that 4 mana for tapping 4 creatures is a solid play. i don't disagree. what i don't like about it is that after it resolves, there is no permanent change in the board state unless used EOT before you sunblast. i would feel differently if you were more of an aggro build, but you're not, so 2 mana to prevent what will probably only end up being 3 life doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, it seems akin to life gain to me when you're just using it to play defensively, you prevented damage for one turn. big deal. ya know? like i guess i'm playing devil's advocate on this one. i just like things that change things permanently, not just for a turn. for instance, what if you spent that mana on deciever exarch? sure, it's 3 mana, but think about the fact that it taps down a creature when you flash it in, then it can block as a 1/4. you've got the board state now altered from the tap down effect, and a surprise combat trick that gives you a solid defender a lot of the time.
3. there couldn't be a more perfect answer. i'm not saying i'm a god at the game or anything, but i'll be more than happy to keep replying to this post as much as you want for as long as you want input on the deck just for that answer. :)
4. yeah, i feel like D-Reck might work better in your deck that Day, just because you have a few actually useful cards that will come onto the field before day, namely lawkeeper, avenger, and abolisher (which i still think should be SB, but it really depends on your meta and how you think the new set will shake things up)
5. i agree. i just think that leak might be a bit too powerful to miss out on. i hope you don't mind, but i took the liberty of taking your deck and changing it around to what i think might work out a bit better... Here it is, although i think i might have lost the whole point of "tap-down" which was something i was trying really hard not to do... in tact, i kept 3x magnet, 4x lawkeeper, and 3x gideon, then went up to 3x frost titans and added 3x exarch (trust me, it's an awesome utility card, and a great way to keep you up against aggo which might actually be a rough matchup for you). i also took out all of the strict CA, instead playing venser and solemn instead. The sideboard will be mostly focused around countering board wiping effects such as day, reckoning, and black sun, and surviving long enough with timely reinforcements against aggro. you'll note the 4 solemn simulacrums. that's because all of the tap down effects that i chose sit on the board and are reuseable, so each time they cost mana, and having 4 things on the field is rough, you win basically with swinging with frost titan after taping down other things, then making everyone attack gideon, then rinsing and repeating, or through making avenger and other bombs or so here or there, then using venser's -1. i think this on is more consistent, but it lacks the theme you have, which is a shame. HOWEVER , I definitely think that you need the 4 leaks and to play venser as well a solemn, he's 4 mana for a land, a blocker (so you can tap more later), and a draw. seems solid to me. also, you really should look into exarch, in the aggro matchup you drop him, then block and tap down to prevent their whole turn 3 swing, solid, or against control they leave open to mana, you tap their blue one so you don't have to worry about counterspell (and i know you can say abolisher does this, but although he's awesome, he's a SB card against control, and how you win the matchup, not a MB buddy, exarch can do the same thing in a sense, and is just generally more versatile. :)


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Also, i hope all my ranting comments have helped at least a bit. :) good luck and as long as you keep replying to my posts i'll keep replying to yours.

At least on Friday, the Abolisher proved to still be too strong to not use main deck. The ability to not have my turn interuppted by anything short of a triggered ability (damn Sphinx) is just too strong. Admittedly, I didn't play against any true control decks on Friday, so this might change further down the road, but right now I'm keeping it right where it is. :)

Solemns are actually a possibility. Where I'm looking to take the Angels out, I'd like to replace them with a cheaper creature with utility. I'm wavoring on the Exarchs, only because they're only mediocre without Venser in there and right now that would mean trading a Gideon for a Venser which might not be such a great idea. HOWEVER, I kind of like the idea of having the Exarchs as SB tech against red aggro or Tempered Steel.

I took a look at your build and I have some responses, and more replies for this thread, too but I don't have time this second.

Made my comments on the deck, though they aren't as plentiful as they might have been had I been able to comment last week. I've lso forgotten anything else I was going to say here.

FYI, deck list is updated again, slated for more tweaking, and my match summary for Friday is up.

15 cards is NOT a big enough board to prepare for everything my main deck needs help dealing with. And that is NOT a good thing.

Sleeved up proxied versions of the 4 top deck types we're likely to see at States so that we could do some last minute cramming. And after my first two games, getting trounced (again) by Solar Flare I had to finally give in to the reality of the situation: Taps, in any variation of the list I have, will not be competitive in Standard at this time. There's always a chance that something my come in the next two Innistrad expansions that will make it viable again, but as it stands right now, every major winning build just runs right over me.

For now, I'm setting this aside. I'll come back to it, either when something more board-effective comes in furture sets or, possibly, for Modern/Extended. Losing Sleep and Narcolepsy really hurt this deck and it doesn't look recoverable. :/

So... Temper Steel at States for me!

Thanks for all your help, guys, especially Sloth. It bolstered me for a while and, inthe end, helped me see past my stubbornness to the fact that this just isn't going to work like I want it to.