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[QUOTE=sidel]I have blight mamba out with hermetic study on him. (poision pinger)

I also have Seedborne Muse and Quest for renewal with 4+ counters on Quest.

At the beginning of my oponents turn can I hit him with 3 poision counters or only 2?[/QUOTE]

The untap effect is not cumulative, so just 2.

[QUOTE=sidel]I have Blight Mamba out with Hermetic Study on him. (poision pinger)

I also have Seedborn Muse and Quest For Renewal with 4+ counters on Quest.

At the beginning of my oponents turn can I hit him with 3 poision counters or only 2?[/QUOTE]


Turn starts

Untap phase. Everything untaps like normal.

Upkeep. Both Quest For Renewal's and Seedborn Muse's effects activate. You may place them on the stack in any order.

You activate your ping ability before either untap ability resolves. The ability goes on the stack above the two untap abilities.

It goes through. One poison counter.

You let Quest For Renewal resolve. Your pinger untaps.

Seedborn Muse's ability is the only thing on the stack. You tap your creature again and the ability goes on the stack above it.

The ping ability resolves. Two poison counters.

The second untap ability resolves.

With the stack empty, you tap to ping for a third time.


YES you can tap 3 times with untap step, untap ability, and untap ability. You just have to know when to tap - before the upkeep abilities resolve but after they are on the stack.

surewhynot-EVERYTHING is cumulative in Magic unless it says otherwise.

Straight from the gatherer.

"Controlling more than one Quest for Renewal with four or more quest counters on it is redundant. You can't untap your permanents more than once in a single untap step."

Seedborn triggers at the exact same time as Quest for Renewal so for the sake of simplicity Seedborn muse = Quest for Renewal then you can go right from what's said.

Controling more than one [enter untap all your shit during everyone else's untap step here] is redundant.

Btw SWN isn't some noob, he knows his shit so come up with some evidence to prove someone wrong next time broski.

Link: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194007

Exactly, it states the trigger occurs during the opponent's untap step, and therefore is unrelated to the upkeep step, can't go on the stack, and is not cumulative. Also, many things in magic are NOT cumulative unless otherwise stated (Flying, Trample, First/Doublestrike, Shroud, Hexproof, Unblockable, Indestructable, Protection, etc.). It's never as clear and cut as "always" or "never".

Let's see...double checking... it appears you are right, you can only get one extra untap.

The biggest difference is it uses the text "during" instead of "at the beginning of"

It's a subtle difference in wording (I missed it >.<), but it's a huge difference in end result.

"at the beginning of" does use the stack, and would allow them to be cumulative. The cards do not have the words "at the beginning of", unlike most cards in magic do (why I screwed up).

"during" does not use the stack, and therefore having two is redundant.




I will still argue that Flying, Trample, First/Doublestrike, Shroud, Hexproof, Unblockable, Indestructible, Protection from _ are cumulative, It's just having the text twice would normally not have an effect:

Example Creature :mana1::manaw::manau:
This creature cannot be blocked except by creatures with flying.
This creature cannot be blocked except by creatures with flying.
This creature deals damage before creatures without Firststrike.
This Creature deals damage before creatures without Firststrike.
2/2

No difference in how it plays, but it is indeed cumulative.
The text on Levitation says "Creatures you control have flying."
instead of "Creatures you control without flying have flying"

Another example: Cavalry Master

[QUOTE=SilverTabby]"at the beginning of" does use the stack, and would allow them to be cumulative. The cards do not have the words "at the beginning of", unlike most cards in magic do (why I screwed up).

"during" does not use the stack, and therefore having two is redundant.[/QUOTE]

What, no.

Most every card that has "During your upkeep" has been officially erata'd to read "At the beginning of your upkeep" so why would it be any different during your untap step?


[QUOTE=SilverTabby]I will still argue that Flying, Trample, First/Doublestrike, Shroud, Hexproof, Unblockable, Indestructible, Protection from _ are cumulative, It's just having the text twice would normally not have an effect:

Example Creature :mana1::manaw::manau:
This creature cannot be blocked except by creatures with flying.
This creature cannot be blocked except by creatures with flying.
This creature deals damage before creatures without Firststrike.
This Creature deals damage before creatures without Firststrike.
2/2

No difference in how it plays, but it is indeed cumulative.
The text on Levitation says "Creatures you control have flying."
instead of "Creatures you control without flying have flying"

Another example: Cavalry Master[/QUOTE]

This is also completely redundant. Something that has "double flying" is the exact same thing as "single flying". It doesn't fly higher, and the same is true for First strike, double strike, lifelink, trample, and most every other ability ever made in magic excluding the ones that say otherwise such as flanking. That one's actually relevant as they DO infact add to the game if there's more than one instance of it on the same creature.

[QUOTE=Scotty1700]What, no.

Most every card that has "During your upkeep" has been officially erata'd to read "At the beginning of your upkeep" so why would it be any different during your untap step?
[/QUOTE]

1) The two cards in question are VERY different from those erata'd to "At the beginning of your upkeep". These two have not been erata'd, and they do not say "upkeep". They say "untap".

2) This is a static ability, not a triggered ability, and therefore it does not use the stack like normal.

3)502.2 and 502.3 say so:

[QUOTE=The Comp. Rules]502. Untap Step

...

502.2. Second, the active player determines which permanents he or she controls will untap. Then he or
she untaps them all simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn&#8217;t use the stack. Normally, all of a
player&#8217;s permanents untap, but effects can keep one or more of a player&#8217;s permanents from
untapping.
502.3. No player receives priority during the untap step, so no spells or abilities can be played or
resolved. Any ability that triggers during this step will be held until the next time a player would
receive priority, which is usually during the upkeep step. (See rule 503, &#8220;Upkeep Step.&#8221;)[/QUOTE]




[QUOTE=Scotty1700]
This is also completely redundant. Something that has "double flying" is the exact same thing as "single flying". It doesn't fly higher, and the same is true for First strike, double strike, lifelink, trample, and most every other ability ever made in magic[/QUOTE]

I did say that. That's the whole point. It's redundant to have it twice, but there is NOTHING saying that you cannot have it twice.

[QUOTE=Webster's Dictionary]Redundant. Adjective:
Characterized by verbosity or unnecessary repetition in expressing ideas.[/QUOTE]

Yes, abilities are defined on a case-by-case basis as "redundant" or "each instance triggers separately", but the word "Redundant" is not defined in the the official rules, and none of the definitions of the word "redundant" have any thing to do with the idea that you can't have more than one - they only have to do with the idea that there IS more than one.
The word means it's unnecessary, BUT NOT ILLEGAL.
See my example with double flying.
They are not labeled redundant because having more than one is illegal; they are defined as redundant because having more than one does nothing extra.

I never said or inferred that it did anything additional in most cases. I said that there was nothing stopping me from having the word twice, and as such you can (usually) assume that a given ability is cumulative. The only thing that changes from ability to ability is if two copies of it actually does something.



Based I what I can gather from the rules, I submit that:

:mana1:Cumulative is the rule. Not cumulative is the exception.
:mana2:An ability is considered redundant if and only if having two cumulative copies of the ability would not change how a card actually plays.
:mana3:Redundancy, by definition, does not affect anything.

edit:Quest for Renewal and Seedborn Muse are exceptions.

...someone has too much time on their hands.

[QUOTE=Scotty1700]...someone has too much time on their hands.[/QUOTE]

I'm practicing for a debate :p

This a bit of an out there way to do it but how can you now love the idea of combining something I was going to do anyways and MTG :D

[QUOTE=Scotty1700]...someone has too much time on their hands.[/QUOTE]

Says the person who's only purpose on this thread is to be condescending. Have fun with that ;)

[QUOTE=SavajCabbaj]Says the person who's only purpose on this thread is to be condescending. Have fun with that ;)[/QUOTE]

Hey I posted what I thought woulda been the correct ruling, I was just surprized at the depth of his response.

[QUOTE=Scotty1700]I was just surprized at the depth of his response.[/QUOTE]

Well you DID call him out and demand he come up with evidence to support his claim.

[QUOTE=Seras]Well you DID call him out and demand he come up with evidence to support his claim.[/QUOTE]

Eh not demand but one can't go off claiming something with nothing backing it.

[QUOTE=Scotty1700]Eh not demand but one can't go off claiming something with nothing backing it.[/QUOTE]

Prove it :D

[QUOTE=SavajCabbaj]Prove it :D[/QUOTE]

The earth is going to explode in 1367 seconds. Fits all the parameters :v

My point is why believe him when he has no reasoning behind it. Sure I could assume it's true but what if I'm wrong and in a more structured format...

well you could put apathy on your "pinger" make a deck that would draw cards like crazy go to the upkeep deal damage activate apathy discard a card rinse and repeat!!!!

Or just do a pauper quicksilver dagger+apathy combo a win some tournments,,,, lol

[QUOTE=Portugaru]well you could put apathy on your "pinger" make a deck that would draw cards like crazy go to the upkeep deal damage activate apathy discard a card rinse and repeat!!!!

Or just do a pauper quicksilver dagger+apathy combo a win some tournaments,,,, lol[/QUOTE]

...Apathy does not work that way. Apathy does one thing: PREVENT untapping.

The way the card works:

Upkeep starts.
Apathy's ability is placed on the stack.
Apathy's ability starts to resolve.
While the ability is resolving, the controller of the creature has a decision to make:
:mana1: Discard one card: untap the creature.
:mana2: Do nothing. The Creature does not untap.
The decision is made once and only once per turn.

You cannot activate apathy whenever you want because it is a triggered ability, not an activated ability.

An activated ability comes in the form
[QUOTE]cost: effect[/QUOTE]
The card that does what you are looking for is Mind over Matter

http://www.moxdiamond.com/Magic-The-Gathering/Deck/6871/Wall-Deck-p--p--p-.html

http://www.mtgnews.com/archive/index.php/t-23400.html

http://combo.magicology.nl/index.php?q=s:%22Quicksilver%20Dagger%3AThieving%20Magpie%22

As long has it is your upkeed you can keep untaping so long you have card in hand.

there are several apathy + quicksilver dagger decks... it was an old combo.


Apathy states this

During the upkeep of enchanted creature's controller, that player may discard a card at random to untap that creature

it is an abilitie as long as it does not tap or states it can only be done once, as long as you have means to pay for that abilitie you can keep on doing it, unless someone ends your upkeep forcefully. has long it is your upkeep you can activate abilities cause you have priority.

Still i am gonna check with a referee friend of mine if this still is viable because at Apocalypse time there were quite a few people doing this...

Best regards

[QUOTE=Portugaru]. . .

As long has it is your upkeed you can keep untaping so long you have card in hand.

. . .

Apathy states this

During the upkeep of enchanted creature's controller, that player may discard a card at random to untap that creature
. . .
[/QUOTE]

Apathy doesn't work like that. The revised card text reads:

[QUOTE=Gatherer]Enchant creature

Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step.

At the beginning of the upkeep of enchanted creature's controller, that player may discard a card at random. If he or she does, untap that creature.[/QUOTE]

Which works like this:
1) Beginning of upkeep
2) Discard a card
3) Any other Beginning of upkeep
4) Creature untaps, it is no longer the beginning of the upkeep.