dknight27

I honestly have no idea what to do with this old boy anymore. I don't think it can keep up with the nonsense explosive combos and sheer amount of options that are mainboarded (much less sideboarded) that can derail the combo or get around it (without Maze in play). Saga alone pumping out 2 jerks and jumping into a [[Pithing Needle]] that shuts down every combo piece but Chronatog (which leads to a loss anyway most of the time) is realistically enough to get me to not play the build as is.

I was thinking of maybe fusing it with either a lands build or a traditional control build as a slow down/alt mechanic that isn't the primary goal and can be juked into and out of games 2 and 3 to make it a rock/paper/scissors guess. For example, turn 3 on the play, dropping a Stasis against a fielded [[The One Ring]] is like +5 turns of tempo and potentially 5 damage (if opponent got greedy), and lets you have a chance against a game that otherwise would most likely be lost. If nothing else, you turn it into a pseudo [[Time Walk]], cause opponent's next turn is basically turn 1 but without a hand full of juice, and you've (hopefully) got a turn banked on an untapped land that you can then get into shenanigans with (play [[Crop Rotation]] into [[Forsaken City]]), or something like that.

What I'd really like it to find a way to abuse Saga, cause it'll trigger regardless and give you an artifact that can potentially do SOMETHING, I just haven't found what that something should be/how to get it done. The best I've found so far is [[Obelisk of Undoing]], which is horrible, but would let you get the perfect lock for the low-low cost of 6 mana per turn with 2 on top to replay Stasis.

As for the 'as is' problems, I was hoping the Stifles and Crop Rotations would outnumber the Wastelands and the 9 manaless counters would handle the Force of Vigors, with Noxious Revival backing up both mechanics, but that might be overly optimistic, as they all have to also shut down whatever else opponent is doing (assuming the Maze lock isn't in place).

I don't know, I'm all turned around on this one.

I was born for such a challenge.

Are we talking legacy? Pox specific?

I was pondering that as well. Also [[Primal Command]] and [[Stunted Growth]] for similar reasons, but I'm unsure if they fit correctly. I'm very unfamiliar with accelerated mana builds (I almost always play fair control with engines), and it's hard to imagine ramping to a 5-drop with GG that I can't just cheat into play with a [[Dark Ritual]] and an [[Ancient Tomb]] + land that produces black.

I then had a swerve idea to go for that in some sort of maverick deck that uses mana dorks (fixing the ramp and green problem), so perhaps that's where those ideas could fit. You could theoretically get away from the full prison package but still run Maze in there too, as your dorks get around the tap problem.

I'll probably end up trying for both

I am experimenting with that very thing right now. I'm looking at incorporating [[Fallow Earth]] and lots of ways to play it (and other devastating 3 drops) turn 2, so you can potentially do turn 1- drop land into Root Maze, opponent plays tapped land (hopefully fetch) and pass. Turn 2, drop [[Ancient Tomb]] tapped and pass, opponent cracks fetch land or untaps single land, plays another tapped land, and either has 1 open land or 2 tapped lands. Turn 3- drop Fallow Earth, play a tapped land, you're at 3 lands (and 4 mana) vs opponent's 1 land and ahead sooooooooooooooo much tempo that the game's over if you draw into anything that does anything to advance a win condition. I am, however, having trouble figuring out what I want that to be, beyond Saga gaming and maybe a [[Black Vise]] it can fetch

Looks good. Only thing that worries me is the 18 lands. I'd personally shave a Counterspell for a basic Island, but that's me. I'm a hater of mulligans. Let me know how it plays

I've been pondering the old Beanstalk quite a bit lately, many ideas in the works on that one.

Do you think Maze could be worked into a Pox build? It already runs green for Loam and denies resources as a 1-drop and you can use it to take advantage of the tempo jump in Pox since you run [[Mox Diamond]] and [[Dark Ritual]], so you can get a major jump in tempo and slam the Maze and smile. Like, think how great it would be to do a turn 1 land, [[Thoughtseize]] away the counter, drop the Mox and land the Maze. Now you've got a minimum of +3 tempo and you get to see an extra few turns to be able to Pox their land/critter/hand or just immediately follow it up with a Wasteland once they burn through the two turns of fetching.

I want so desperately to find something overlooked by the masses that just copy and paste the same meta. I've got lots of ideas on how to try to use Maze to do so, but I don't know if it will be what I'm looking for or not yet. The most obvious answer seems to be to stick it in a weenie agro deck (probably white/green) and just smash faces with it. Paired with stuff like [[Esper Sentinel]], it's an engine of doom that you can have on line turn 2 with a big ol smile as you start poking opponent and quickly ramp up to 3-4 damage a turn until you're so far ahead that it doesn't matter anymore. I also really want to experiment with it in a [[Stasis]] build, which has always fascinated me anyway.

As for minimizing the lock on you while using it, I am toying around with just running various 2-color builds that don't need to run many fetches so you're up a major amount of tempo, as you're only losing a turn a land instead of 2, and you can max out your cheap-ass stuff. Maybe a GU control build or something like that, I'm still toying around with the idea obviously.

It certainly doesn't look impressive on its own, that's perfectly fair. Here's the breakdown, both for why it's good on its own and for the delver build.

A- it's a land that produces material: if you're willing to invest 2 turns worth of mana into it, you can create two 3/3 critter tokens and get a 1-drop artifact. One of the central problems of magic is that you NEED lands as quickly as possible, after which you NEED to not draw lands. Getting land screwed or land flooded are the easiest ways to lose a game, and there are only limited things you can do about this problem. Saga gets around this, as it produces mana if you need it, after which it produces material if you can afford it. So it's almost never a bad draw or a bad place in an opening hand.

B- it's an artifact tutor: even if it only gets a 1-drop artifact, there are some extremely useful 1-drops that either fix a problem, draw you a card, or just up the artifact count (which makes the tokens Saga creates stronger). Any way you look at it, it's a land that helps you get what you need to solve whatever problem you're looking at.

C- it's a win condition: spawning two critter tokens may not seem like that important an effect, but they are a way to win games that are in a stalemate, stall for time if you need it, or are straight up a win condition in artifact decks, as they get stronger the more artifacts you have. You can also do some nasty tricks with them, such as fetching [[Lavaspur Boots]] so that both tokens can attack immediately as a 3/3 and 4/3 with Ward 1, or fetching [[Shadowspear]] so that you've got a 3/3 and a 4/4 with Trample and Lifelink.

D- delirium: Saga is worth 2 card types, one of which is the most rarely used (making getting delirium a forgone conclusion). Of note, not all delver builds use it (delver has changed a lot over the years), but since Saga is a land and an enchantment, and it kills itself, your grave just went from only having instant and sorcery to having the full delirium with a single card, on top of everything else it does. Perhaps best of all, since it searches for an artifact, you could always get an artifact that can sac itself on the cheap, meaning that Saga just got you 3/4 of your card types for dilirium, and all it cost you was 2 turns and maybe a single mana (if you fetched, say, a Spellbomb)

E- recycling/copying tricks: Saga can be copied with Thespian's Stage after it hits its token trigger, meaning you can make tokens with it every turn and never lose the mana. You can also recycle Saga and keep using it's busted abilities with cards like [[Life from the Loam]] and [[Wrenn and Six]], making it unbelievably problematic in games that aren't decided very quickly. In essence, Saga can create engines that win games through grinding out 'free' material that are relatively difficult to stop. Since it's a land, traditional removal doesn't work on it, and since it can be recycled, if you don't have something like a [[Pithing Needle]] to shut it down, even if you manage to kill it off once, it can be brought back any number of times to keep being a problem. Lots of control decks use it is a win condition/engine for this very purpose and let you fill the rest of your deck with removal/counter/control junk and just say 'no' to whatever opponent is doing while you let Saga win for you

Here's a hypothetical game showing you what I'm talking about:

Turn 1- play island, play Delver, pass

Turn 2- (hopefully) flip Delver, play Saga, swing for 3 with 2 mana up for interaction (17 life left)

On opponent's turn- counter or remove whatever opponent does

Turn 3- play a land, attack with Delver, pass (14 life left) (you've got 3 mana up to counter/remove if necessary)

End of opponent's turn- tap out to create a token if you didn't have to interact

Turn 4- Saga's suicide ability triggers, you tap out to create a second token in response, then fetch an artifact (depending on what you need) and swing with Delver and the first token (8 life left)

Turn 5- you swing with everything and GG


The only real problems with Saga are that 1- it costs 50 bucks a pop (meaning that each copy of it is worth an entire budget deck), 2- it only produces colorless mana (so it throws off your mana curve slightly and limits the colors you can play), and 3- it suicides itself so you can't rely on it for mana for very long (but notably it can replace itself if necessary). In a build like this, you could add in Saga and a few artifacts like [[Aether Spellbomb]] or [[Pyrite Spellbomb]], or you could just run your 4 Mishra's Baubles (which you desperately want to run anyway (they combo off of everything)), as Saga can fetch one and they replace themselves while giving you a peek at a topdeck (you can use this on yourself to see if Delver will flip and/or use a fetchland or draw effect to help Delver flip). So, you play it, either get critter tokens off of it or use it for mana short term, then get an artifact that sacs itself and gives you instant

In all reality, going with Saga in an otherwise budget build is probably a bad idea. You could just as easily spend MUCH less and ramp up the build with cards like [[Fiery Islet]], [[Spell Pierce]], [[Sink Into Stupor // Soporific Springs]], [[Spirebluff Canal]], and [[Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft]], or just make minor tweaks to the build and keep it budget friendly but running more smoothly. I'd advise against running them personally. If you want to sink more money into the deck, there are just easier/cheaper/better ways to do it.

If you need more help, just let me know.

Always a fun deck setup. Couple things to help here:

I'll give some general advice as well as suggestions for what to keep/swap out/add/shave

Getting delirium with Rage Channeler will be hard with so few card types and no fetch lands. You've got creature, instant, and sorcery covered, but you'll struggle to find the fourth type the whole game unless you get lucky, so we'll address that below. Unfortunately the delver build is almost exclusively designed to take advantage of Urza's Saga, which you can't use due to budgetary issues, so we're going to have to get creative on how to round that out a bit.

Monument to Endurance doesn't have any good engine mechanics in here, so you can shave it. Flameblast and Sphinx are too expensive and can be shaved. The Mirari Conjecture is too slow and expensive and can be shaved.

This deck's best friend is Mishra's Bauble, and you should absolutely run 4 of them. They're free cantrips (replace themselves), and up your artifact count for delirium, exactly what this build needs.

Your land base is very slow for what the build wants (turn 1 critter hitting the ground running, followed up by protecting that critter and removing obstacles), but that really can't be helped due to the budget without resigning yourself to only running basics. However, you can take advantage of some of the cheap tapped lands to boost the two mechanics you've got running here. [[Rush of Inspiration // Crackling Falls]] will be checked by Delver as a spell, flipping it, but you can play it as a tapped dual land if you need it, or cast it later in the game. [[Bountiful Landscape]] can be played turn 1 into a tapped basic or utilized turn 2 for a two-drop before you sac it off for your basic. In either case, you get what you need out of it, and since it's a fetch land, you up the delirium count. I'd recommend running those two over Avishkar Raceway, Swiftwater Cliffs, and Temple of Epiphany (even if this helps Delver).

[[Preordain]] gives you the scry to help Delver, costs less than a buck, and is better than Sleight of Hand.

All of the above brings you back to 64, so you still need to shave some cards.

I'd recommend shaving an Expressive Iteration (you can't play it turn 2 cause you can't take advantage of playing a land off it/don't have any mana to abuse it), a Treasure Hunt (the math is very much on you only drawing 1 card off it without help from a scry/surveil, and the potential benefits don't outweigh the two-drop draw 1 it's likely to be), a Dreadhorde Arcanist (it's conditional and slow (in the context of the deck that wants to play a critter turn 1 and then protect it)), and a Counterspell (the UU is harder to rely on in the early game, and holding up two mana to use it can/will slow you down (you've got 4 two-drop counters, which is probably too slow for the build)).

Just my thoughts, take em or leave em

I love the idea of Squee, and actually tried to squeeze him in here. I've tried to take advantage of his nifty engine ability for a long time, but can never justify him over faster or more potent options, which is a giant shame. He'd have to be run in a format that can't crank out a 5/5 flyer and token engine on turn 2 with mana up to protect it (modern is ludicrous). Maybe some day, who knows.

Yawgmoth's Bargain is bonkers of course, especially when you can run it with cards like [[Soul Spike]] and just draw through your whole deck and burn opponent out in a single turn, but it's only legal in vintage and kind of demands it's own build.

Either way, thanks for the feedback. I don't have enough time to be on here as I'd like, and I've been having some fun deck projects eat up my time on here lately so I haven't been able to check out what else is going on, but I'm always on the lookout for discussion of the game (which to me is by far the most fun part)

You very much want to cheat with the lands here to up the devotion to blue count, as right now you're going to get 4/10 of the cards flipped by Sanity as a value of 0. You can get around this by running [[Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn]], [[Sink Into Stupor // Soporific Springs]], and [[Lórien Revealed]], all of which will significantly improve the casting of Sanity and still act as lands.

I enjoy the little splash of control idea. Seems like a potentially profitable minor juke mainboarded. Just a couple thoughts on how to smooth it out a bit.

I like [[Ipnu Rivulet]] over Shelldock Isle, as it's not conditional and enters untapped, so you can hold up a Counterspell turn 2 if necessary and the curve is so low that you won't lose much life on it if you need the U mana anyway.

I also like [[Thought Scour]] over Preordain, as it obviously helps with your mill count basically for free, but also lets you cantrip Snap at instant speed if you need it. This also helps get Visions online a turn faster, and since they are both instants, you could (in theory) refill your hand in the endphase and have a full turn of refilled hand and mana ready to rumble.

You could also run a copy of [[Sink Into Stupor // Soporific Springs]] over an island, as you get the land drop if you need it, or the control element if you need it, so it's not a bad topdeck either way.

I'd also consider cutting Snap down to 3 copies so you don't get flooded with them without good grave targets (you need 3 mana most of the time, so they are slow up front but better mid game and as topdecks). Maybe run another cantrip or control card (speeds things up and are good targets for the Snaps you're running)

Just a few thoughts

The more I think about the [[Unearth]]/[[Snapcaster Mage]] interaction, the more I think it's just busted as all hell. So many opportunities for shenanigans. I could probably get away with shaving an Edict and a Bowmasters for a set.

Unearth pulls back Snap, Snap pulls back Truth, 3 mana gets you a 2/1 and 3 cards. God damn

Seems like running 4 Ovens might be a bit too heavy, as you want them for the familiar combo but don't really need them otherwise, and they are fetchable with Saga. Maybe swap out 1 for another discard source to up the chances of tossing away Asmoran/taking advantage of all the other synergy with discard? I can't see a little [[Faithless Looting]] being out of place here. I'd personally cut a copy of Anvil for a second Looting as well, if only because it's less useful without the combos in play. Just thoughts at a glance.

That's certainly an interesting prison mechanic card, especially since it basically shuts down all counterspells and eats removal if there are no targets. I'd give it some consideration for the sideboard, but it doesn't exactly fit in the maindeck because it's a 4-drop. The main combo is Goblin working with Emry, both of which rely on cheap cards. Goblin can only fetch back 3-drops, so he can pitch a Mask to the grave but can't fetch it back, and Emry can fetch it back but since it's a 4-drop it would eat the whole turn's mana to do so. The beauty of the setup is that Goblin makes the switch for 1 mana and Emry can fetch back 0-drops for free, so the whole thing costs minimal and allows you to stull use your lands/draws to keep developing.

It's certainly worth considering though, I've never given the card much thought, but it is a full stop to a good deal of mechanics and builds. It would be REALLY good in Legacy where you can use bullshit lands like [[Ancient Tomb]] and acceleration like the off-color Moxes to ramp into it turn 1 or 2. Let me think on it.

Assassin's Trophy is indeed generally better and would fit very well. However, the singles are there to take advantage of Urza's Saga, which searches 1-drop artifacts, so it effectively runs 5 copies of each, depending on what out you need. Plus, you can reuse the Sagas with Wrenn and Six, and they're a win condition all on their own, especially in this deck as you generate Food tokens, which are artifacts, so the tokens you can generate with Sagas will be gigantic.

I never know how to balance Force of Negation. My thought here was that it protects Glarb the turn you play him (if you're out of mana), so you can play him a turn early, and that you can pitch Glarb to it if you need to shut down some explosive combo bullshit. Also, that once Glarb is online, having one in hand is worth the 2:1 since Glarb pulls from the top of the deck, so you're really not losing material, as it lets you dump all your mana into capitalizing on Glarb's engine. It does clog up the top of the deck, which is a bummer, and really isn't a good substitute for [[Force of Will]] since it's double conditional, so I might be way off trying to run 4 of them when I could jam in a [[Spell Snare]] or the like. It REALLY blows that there aren't any counter spells in modern that you can reliably reduce in cost that Glarb can take advantage of. [[Disrupting Shoal]] and [[Out of Air]] are atrocious, and [[Overwhelming Denial]] defeats the purpose, so I didn't really know what else to do.

The Triome makes perfect sense. The fact that this deck can't play red as a major color because of Glarb's tri-color identity bummed me out like crazy, cause cards like [[Fire // Ice]], [[Cut // Ribbons]], [[Rise // Fall]], and [[Rough // Tumble]] would all be in the mix. My initial thought with the surveil lands was that 1- they help Glarb anyway cause you can play em from the topdeck and you can either see 2 cards with Glarb or just net the land, 2- that you can do the same thing with a fetch land into a surveil land (deck thinning on top), and 3- that you can store up fetch lands to effectively be used as Brainstorms. Ideally, turn 1 you're going to fetch a surveil land in opponent's endstep anyway, leaving 2 in the deck (as is), but I can see why the access to red would be better. Fire knocks off lots of little threats like [[Orcish Bowmasters]], so being able to cast one instead of just Ice would be super beneficial. Good call.

Keeping in mind that this deck type is one of the ones I have the least experience with, I'd suggest the following:

You'd want some more 1-drops to speed up the deck as much as you can, cause you want to start the damage clock immediately. [[Flamekin Harbringer]] is a perfect fit in here. It doesn't net you any material, but it keeps the elemental count high, starts your damage clock, and sets up whatever critter you need next.

Convenient Target is a bit too slow and doesn't give enough benefit in the build as is. I'd recommend some basic burn like [[Lightning Bolt]] that you can use to remove threats or burn to the face to end the game instead.

Gnawing Crescendo has some cool synergy with the sac elementals, but the problem is, it costs 3, so to play it on the same turn as one of the sac elementals means you have to have 4, 5, or 6 mana available, which this deck doesn't want to have happen. It's also a dead draw in some cases, and really only gets value when you have at least 2 critters in play. As alternatives, you could go with the same idea of a broad boost like Painter's Studio // Defaced Gallery (it's a room card, you can get a LOT of value out of it in here), or play around with [[Risk Factor]], which could also get some absolutely sick value in here, as you either refill your hand or get 4 damage at instant speed, then you can replay it from the grave later/then by tossing something you don't need, such as a land or target for Thunderkin Awakener. In fact, combined with Thunderkin Awakener, you could pay 3 for a jump-start Risk Factor, toss a Ball Lightning, get 4 damage or 3 more cards, attack with Awakener, and reanimate your Ball Lightning for the turn, which is either 11 damage or 7 damage and +2 material for the exchange. This works equally well with the other sec-elementals, which Risk Factor basically turns into free Lightning Bolts.

You can play around with your lands a bit too, as you're running mono-red so you don't need to get fancy but can still get some value out of the lands for cheap return. [[Castle Embereth]], [[Contested War Zone]], [[Shivan Gorge]], and [[Barbarian Ring]] are worth considering in small numbers to augment 3 or so mountains, which helps cut down on the dead draws but still gets you what you want mana wise.

I'm afraid I'm a horrible man and apparently enjoy hitting myself in the face with a baseball bat, a la constructing modern decks.

To be clear, I completely support no one playing in modern until the format gets purged of all its nonsense. I don't play competitively at all anymore, this is more of a side hobby, just tooling around with fun ideas when they pop into my head. I switched years ago to making my own cards/sets and playing with those to bypass everything I hate about modern magic and all its bullshit, money-hungry, raw insanity.

Alright, the plan seems to be: 1- generate tokens for opponent, 2a- drain opponent for those tokens (as well as other critters), 2b- deal with tokens with Ratchet Bomb and return to 1, 2c- attack with Phantasm or copy and see 2a or 2b

The inherent problem with builds like this is that your plan is to arm opponent and eventually punish him for it. In doing so, you're basically unable to stop what he's doing because your deck's whole point is to charge up for damage, so opponent can do whatever he wants on top of being handed ammunition by you while he does.

Imagine playing against a control deck with lots of removal and counterspells that runs 4-8 win conditions. You cast a Hunted Phantasm turn 3 and pass. Opponent cracks a fetch land then hits the Phantasm with [[Fatal Push]] during your endstep. Now you've lost a turn and given opponent the equivalent of +2 in material, and are staring down a deck you can't do much against that's going to eat you alive.

Long story short, you've got to maintain maximum efficiency or you'll end up coming up short before you can stockpile the damage you need to end opponent. Running 4 colors is dangerous (even with the good land spread), so I'd generally advocate cutting down to 3 max. The last thing this deck needs is another math line that leads to dead draws because of land/color problems, you're already looking at situations where you need X and draw Y or lands instead and get mauled by opponent while you're stuck. The good news is, you can cut white with a little finagling and be fine for the subtraction (more on this below). Other than that, the major problem to deal with is (as stated above) you arming opponent to make your plan work.

So, you've gotta make a portion of the deck a prison build, shutting down what opponent is doing as well as disarming the tokens you create so you have time to pull of your win condition of burn damage. The following cards are cheap prison options you can use to shut down the tokens and (hopefully) what opponent's doing (including some white options if you want to keep 4 colors):

[[Propaganda]], [[Juntu Stakes]], [[Boarded Window]], [[Ghostly Prison]], Orim's Prayer, [[Watchdog]], [[Energy Field]], [[Thunderstaff]], [[Crawlspace]]

You also need some more damage sources and massive token generation: [[Stronghold Discipline]], Varchild's War-Riders (we've talked about this one before) are really the way to go.

An alternative line has you keeping white/red and running [[High Noon]], which slows everything down to a crawl and really lets you build to a critical mass on tokens for your W while you use the prison mechanics to stay alive. It's also a damage finisher (an aspect of the card I absolutely adore), so your damage clock gets a little more manageable.

Another option to consider is running some cheap nukes (besides Ratchet Bomb) that will disrupt opponent as well as kill off the gifted tokens, so if you get behind you can at least recover:

[[Path of Peril]]/[[Ritual of Soot]], [[Pest Control]], [[Wrath of the Skies]], and [[Vanquish the Horde]]. I'd absolutely recommend running 4 Ratchet Bombs, as you're going to need to reset the token count at some point in any game you play that can't play two massive burn spells in a row.

As for what to trim, Aether Vial is a good idea based on the critter curve, but doesn't really help here, as what Vial is supposed to do is accelerate critter drops as well as get around counter magic and pull some control tricks. You'd much rather have solid material that gets what needs to be gotten done than topdeck a Vial that does essentially nothing.

Generous Gift, Rapid Hybridization, and Swan Song are all really only good in formats like commander when you don't have access to colors that answer problems better. For example, Generous Gift is really just an awful version of [[Vindicate]]. I know you want to give opponent the token so you can build your damage clock, but there's a big difference between giving a 1/1 and a 3/3. Generous Gift might as well say "give up a turn for -1 material", cause in almost all cases, opponent would be more than happy to play a card that says "opponent discards a card and loses a turn/half a turn, create a 3/3 token" for whatever mana cost the card you killed happened to be.

Humble Defector is only good when combod with something that either lets it tap multiple times a turn, or in a format like EDH where you can trade it with someone to keep gaining material. It won't die to a free Ratchet Bomb, and you have to wait a turn to tap it for the material, so you'd really rather just play something like Night's Whisper if you need the material. Or, better yet, [[Keep Watch]].

Another fun line would be going with [[Sivitri, Dragon Master]] and running [[Hunted Dragon]] (which would be a good consideration anyway). Sivitri keeps you alive, builds to a nuke, and can fetch the Dragon when you have room to breathe which absolutely can be a win condition (especially when combined with one of your burn spells).

Lots of thoughts this time.