dknight27

I'm a huge fan of the naming idea for Raisin Bran, and have tried to keep the same ethos going as it keeps it simple and on theme. I almost made a pun about garlic being a thing which kills vampires and how this deck messes around with pulling stuff back from the grave (a vampire characteristic) but restrained myself.

And I too miss the days when goblins was a blue/black control deck.

I'm right there with you, it makes no god damn sense why the card got made. Why on earth would you give the 'color' that pumps out mana better than any other color a utility card that maximizes that mana output better than any other card I've ever seen. Sometimes I think they don't look at their own game when they make cards. Why would they not have a program in place to run potential cards through that would identify obvious synergy so they can mitigate it/avoid OP obvious combos. Oh well.

My thoughts on only running 2 are that you need Ancient Tomb to do it (unlikely to get the other colorless lands stacked early), and that with all the card selection and cantripping, you're going to see one of the two copies relatively quickly anyway. I went back and forth for a while on the lands, as it would be lovely to not have to rely on Ancient Tomb to get the work done, but the life loss from some of the other options left me hesitant. One obvious fix would be to run [[Mystic Sanctuary]] so you can reuse one of the copies, which I could run over one of the Undercity Sewers (sorry Dismember). Putting in some [[Wasteland]] makes perfect sense, but I didn't know where to fit it (same problem as above) other than to cut a Saga and/or Sink into Stupor (which I don't really like in here anyway because of the bleeding and it's UU that doesn't take advantage of Ancient Tomb). I also thought about [[Academy Ruins]] so the Spellbomb loop of doom can happen, and maybe running [[Expedition Map]] to abuse with it, which combos perfectly with Saga and Ancient Tomb as well as fixing mana problems with Command.

Lots of work yet to do, without even looking at a sideboard (which I detest doing since I don't actively play in tournaments anymore), but I think the idea retains some merit, even if it has problems. There's so much synergy going on, something has to shake loose at some point.

It also just dawned on me that Ancient Tomb synergizes PERFECTLY with [[Intuition]], which could potentially be worked in here somehow, and would set up the Spellbomb grave loop, Command and Mystic Sanctuary recycling, or some other shenanigans. That might be worth working into a deck of its own (maybe simic Uro?). Food for thought I suppose.

Oldschool Myr goodness.

First thing's first, you are basically required to run [[Sol Ring]] (as many copies as you can given what format you want), as you can play it turn 1 then play a Myr turn 1. This speeds you up 2 whole turns and gives you access to 4 mana turn 2 which will shoot this deck into the stratosphere. I'd run that over Welding Jar (and as many copies as you can unless you are going for vintage).

You also want to use some artifact lands, which ups the artifact count for all your cards that count artifacts. [[Seat of the Synod]] over island, and [[Ancient Den]] over Welding Jar (if you don't go for Sol Ring).

[[Distant Melody]] would also go a really, really long way in this deck, as you up it's draw factor and cut its mana curve with each Myr you've got fielded. Excellent way to draw into whatever you need, and another way to cash in on your potential infinite mana loop of the double Galvinizer.

I feel like trying to squeeze in an [[Inspiring Vantage]] or [[Sunbillow Verge]] so you can pop the High Noons for your Lava Axe effect to end the game or turn the clock forward/use multiple copies of Noon. I'd think a single copy would work, as you want the games to drag, and it's not strictly necessary, but will help more than it hurts.

Just checking the parameters, as it changes my feedback based on the format and budget.

Off the bat, you want to cut it down to 60 if you can for consistency reasons. This also feeds into the other advice, so I'll let it ride below.

The main advice I can give is to cut down the curve to speed the deck up as much as you can. Right now, you've got literally nothing you can do turn 1, which means you're behind in almost every game, especially on the draw. That's sort of the opposite of what decks like this want. You ideally want to field a critter turn 1 and start the damage clock every game, then be playing a critter every turn after that and quickly overwhelm opponent with numbers, lord effects, and tempo. If you can drop a critter turns 1 and 2 then drop a lord turn 3, you've basically got the game in the bag assuming there's no nuke headed your way. That's the ideal setup, but even without the lord ready and waiting in hand, you'd rather have speed than power in a build like this.

For example, you'd rather play a 1-drop turn 1 than have to wait till turn 3 to drop an Uninvited Geist. Geist is stronger, 'harder' to block, and can buff itself, but dies just as easily to spot removal as a 1-drop and eats a much more important turn if it does, while the 1-drop gets some damage and tempo and goes 1 for 1 without costing you anything. Imagine it's your turn 3, you play your third land and tap out for the Geist, then opponent taps a land and Bolts it, then gets to untap into whatever he's planning to do. This speed-centric idea is extremely pleasant in spirit builds, as all your 1-drop options for critters come with great advantages, and combo with other parts of the deck perfectly.

And more good news, there are some killer spirits that are cheap, so you can get this done pretty easily and stick to a very reasonable budget. Check out [[Mausoleum Wanderer]], [[Rattlechains]], and [[Usher of the Fallen]], all of which should be considered for this deck, and each of which costs less than a quarter.

For similar reasons, I'm going to argue against Door of Destinies (as well as the fact that it's a next to worthless topdeck and slows everything to a crawl if you get it in the opening hand) in favor of [[Rally the Ranks]], as it's much faster, much more reliable, and basically can't miss. It also double buffs Katilda, which is nice.

Not Forgotten is an ok idea, as it either lets you recycle something good, get rid of something bad, or force opponent to topdeck something useless, all with the spirit kicker, but it's probably not worth 4 spots, as it's maximum effect would be as a topdeck rather than in the opening hand or early in the game when there's nothing you need it to do and you'd much rather have a critter to play. So I'd consider cutting it down to 2 spots.

Curiosity is in a bit of a weird spot in the build, as its material math is sort of all over the place. For example, you play it on a critter and attack, opponent Bolts the critter, and you're down 2 for 1 with even tempo. If you manage to land an attack with the critter (which this build is designed to do with all the flying), the card becomes a +0 (justifying itself), but nets you no benefit, as you could have achieved a better result with a [[Preordain]], for example. You actually need to land 2 hits with the critter for it to really be of any value, as Curiosity itself doesn't do anything else. This idea is somewhat mitigated by [[Curious Obsession]], which buffs the critter a bit, suddenly adding a better damage clock on top and being a little more justifiable as a card draw engine, but again, it's got the same material problems. You'd really only want to run it in a deck full of small/fast critters with flying that are essentially guaranteed to get around blocks quickly, which is what I'm advocating for tweak-wise, so you can take that or leave it.

Essence Flux is a good anti-removal card to hold up that you can also use for blocking tricks, but you've already got protection with Drogskol Captain and instant protection if you add [[Rattlechains]] (which you absolutely should), so you could consider cutting it entirely. It works on spot removal, but won't protect the critter from a nuke, which will be coming games 2 and 3 if any are available, and you'd do better with a mass protection card sideboarded anyway.

As for the sideboard, you can build a pretty solid one relatively cheaply. Check out [[Deafening Silence]] against control and storm, [[Damping Matrix]] against artifacts, combo, and creature based combo, [[Pithing Needle]] against specific threats like planeswalkers, lands, critters, etc (can usually be used to shut down a win condition), [[Rest in Peace]] against everything grave, and [[Make a Stand]] as an anti-nuke you can play games 2 and 3 that doubles as a little extra damage as well as a turn free of damage if you need it.

So, overall, I'd say cut 4 Hanged Executioner, 2 Uninvited Geist, 2 Not Forgotten, 2 Door of Destinies, 4 Dreamshackle Geist, 1 Temple of Enlightenment, and 4 Curiosity (leaving 15 spots) and add in 4 [[Mausoleum Wanderer]], 4 [[Usher of the Fallen]], 4 [[Rally the Ranks]], and 3 [[Rattlechains]].

For the sideboard, go with 2 [[Deafening Silence]], 2 [[Damping Matrix]], 2 [[Pithing Needle]], 2 [[Rest in Peace]], 3 [[Make a Stand]], and 4 [[Sheltered by Ghosts]].

You should be able to get all that for 10 bucks at any online retailer, so hopefully that fits in with the budget.

Just some thoughts, not trying to throw hate at the deck.

Are you going for modern budget here?

The sad part is, I've been experimenting with [[Ancient Tomb]] ideas lately myself, and pairing it with [[Bitterblossom]] means you're gunna be bleeding like a vampire's dinner, so you can't do what my gut immediately wanted (will) do, which is pair Bitterblossom with [[Root Maze]] to turn tempo into material as you smile and win the game through attrition.

The major synergy I see right off from Goyf/Bitterblossom is the enchantment (buffs Goyf when dead), and all the material advantage from recursion/tokens that would let you run nukes/sac outlets/etc, but I'm not sure how I'd capitalize on that yet beyond pairing them with Saga to fetch into a lifegain card or a sac outlet (to eat tokens) or self-sacker (which buffs the hell out of Goyf once it's in the grave). Which would enjoy running Ancient Tombs so you can turbo on Saga/make the second token and equip the same turn. Or maybe do it with [[Mox Diamond]] in a land-based build instead (with [[Life From the Loam]] and/or [[Intuition]] package?), which would cut on the bleeding and give you the turn 1 Bitterblossom for serious output (especially on the play game 1 when opponent's got very few mainboarded answers to an enchantment), or turn 1 discard/Goyf combo that makes your Goyf a 2/3 beater. That might let you do the Root Maze strategy as well, as you could do a turn 1 Goyf/Maze smile/pass. Your Goyf will only be a 1/2, but you're up 2 tempo minimum and probably an extra one if opponent has to play a fetch land.

I'm just thinking out loud here

I honestly have no idea what to do with this old boy anymore. I don't think it can keep up with the nonsense explosive combos and sheer amount of options that are mainboarded (much less sideboarded) that can derail the combo or get around it (without Maze in play). Saga alone pumping out 2 jerks and jumping into a [[Pithing Needle]] that shuts down every combo piece but Chronatog (which leads to a loss anyway most of the time) is realistically enough to get me to not play the build as is.

I was thinking of maybe fusing it with either a lands build or a traditional control build as a slow down/alt mechanic that isn't the primary goal and can be juked into and out of games 2 and 3 to make it a rock/paper/scissors guess. For example, turn 3 on the play, dropping a Stasis against a fielded [[The One Ring]] is like +5 turns of tempo and potentially 5 damage (if opponent got greedy), and lets you have a chance against a game that otherwise would most likely be lost. If nothing else, you turn it into a pseudo [[Time Walk]], cause opponent's next turn is basically turn 1 but without a hand full of juice, and you've (hopefully) got a turn banked on an untapped land that you can then get into shenanigans with (play [[Crop Rotation]] into [[Forsaken City]]), or something like that.

What I'd really like it to find a way to abuse Saga, cause it'll trigger regardless and give you an artifact that can potentially do SOMETHING, I just haven't found what that something should be/how to get it done. The best I've found so far is [[Obelisk of Undoing]], which is horrible, but would let you get the perfect lock for the low-low cost of 6 mana per turn with 2 on top to replay Stasis.

As for the 'as is' problems, I was hoping the Stifles and Crop Rotations would outnumber the Wastelands and the 9 manaless counters would handle the Force of Vigors, with Noxious Revival backing up both mechanics, but that might be overly optimistic, as they all have to also shut down whatever else opponent is doing (assuming the Maze lock isn't in place).

I don't know, I'm all turned around on this one.

I was born for such a challenge.

Are we talking legacy? Pox specific?

I was pondering that as well. Also [[Primal Command]] and [[Stunted Growth]] for similar reasons, but I'm unsure if they fit correctly. I'm very unfamiliar with accelerated mana builds (I almost always play fair control with engines), and it's hard to imagine ramping to a 5-drop with GG that I can't just cheat into play with a [[Dark Ritual]] and an [[Ancient Tomb]] + land that produces black.

I then had a swerve idea to go for that in some sort of maverick deck that uses mana dorks (fixing the ramp and green problem), so perhaps that's where those ideas could fit. You could theoretically get away from the full prison package but still run Maze in there too, as your dorks get around the tap problem.

I'll probably end up trying for both

I am experimenting with that very thing right now. I'm looking at incorporating [[Fallow Earth]] and lots of ways to play it (and other devastating 3 drops) turn 2, so you can potentially do turn 1- drop land into Root Maze, opponent plays tapped land (hopefully fetch) and pass. Turn 2, drop [[Ancient Tomb]] tapped and pass, opponent cracks fetch land or untaps single land, plays another tapped land, and either has 1 open land or 2 tapped lands. Turn 3- drop Fallow Earth, play a tapped land, you're at 3 lands (and 4 mana) vs opponent's 1 land and ahead sooooooooooooooo much tempo that the game's over if you draw into anything that does anything to advance a win condition. I am, however, having trouble figuring out what I want that to be, beyond Saga gaming and maybe a [[Black Vise]] it can fetch

Looks good. Only thing that worries me is the 18 lands. I'd personally shave a Counterspell for a basic Island, but that's me. I'm a hater of mulligans. Let me know how it plays

I've been pondering the old Beanstalk quite a bit lately, many ideas in the works on that one.

Do you think Maze could be worked into a Pox build? It already runs green for Loam and denies resources as a 1-drop and you can use it to take advantage of the tempo jump in Pox since you run [[Mox Diamond]] and [[Dark Ritual]], so you can get a major jump in tempo and slam the Maze and smile. Like, think how great it would be to do a turn 1 land, [[Thoughtseize]] away the counter, drop the Mox and land the Maze. Now you've got a minimum of +3 tempo and you get to see an extra few turns to be able to Pox their land/critter/hand or just immediately follow it up with a Wasteland once they burn through the two turns of fetching.

I want so desperately to find something overlooked by the masses that just copy and paste the same meta. I've got lots of ideas on how to try to use Maze to do so, but I don't know if it will be what I'm looking for or not yet. The most obvious answer seems to be to stick it in a weenie agro deck (probably white/green) and just smash faces with it. Paired with stuff like [[Esper Sentinel]], it's an engine of doom that you can have on line turn 2 with a big ol smile as you start poking opponent and quickly ramp up to 3-4 damage a turn until you're so far ahead that it doesn't matter anymore. I also really want to experiment with it in a [[Stasis]] build, which has always fascinated me anyway.

As for minimizing the lock on you while using it, I am toying around with just running various 2-color builds that don't need to run many fetches so you're up a major amount of tempo, as you're only losing a turn a land instead of 2, and you can max out your cheap-ass stuff. Maybe a GU control build or something like that, I'm still toying around with the idea obviously.

It certainly doesn't look impressive on its own, that's perfectly fair. Here's the breakdown, both for why it's good on its own and for the delver build.

A- it's a land that produces material: if you're willing to invest 2 turns worth of mana into it, you can create two 3/3 critter tokens and get a 1-drop artifact. One of the central problems of magic is that you NEED lands as quickly as possible, after which you NEED to not draw lands. Getting land screwed or land flooded are the easiest ways to lose a game, and there are only limited things you can do about this problem. Saga gets around this, as it produces mana if you need it, after which it produces material if you can afford it. So it's almost never a bad draw or a bad place in an opening hand.

B- it's an artifact tutor: even if it only gets a 1-drop artifact, there are some extremely useful 1-drops that either fix a problem, draw you a card, or just up the artifact count (which makes the tokens Saga creates stronger). Any way you look at it, it's a land that helps you get what you need to solve whatever problem you're looking at.

C- it's a win condition: spawning two critter tokens may not seem like that important an effect, but they are a way to win games that are in a stalemate, stall for time if you need it, or are straight up a win condition in artifact decks, as they get stronger the more artifacts you have. You can also do some nasty tricks with them, such as fetching [[Lavaspur Boots]] so that both tokens can attack immediately as a 3/3 and 4/3 with Ward 1, or fetching [[Shadowspear]] so that you've got a 3/3 and a 4/4 with Trample and Lifelink.

D- delirium: Saga is worth 2 card types, one of which is the most rarely used (making getting delirium a forgone conclusion). Of note, not all delver builds use it (delver has changed a lot over the years), but since Saga is a land and an enchantment, and it kills itself, your grave just went from only having instant and sorcery to having the full delirium with a single card, on top of everything else it does. Perhaps best of all, since it searches for an artifact, you could always get an artifact that can sac itself on the cheap, meaning that Saga just got you 3/4 of your card types for dilirium, and all it cost you was 2 turns and maybe a single mana (if you fetched, say, a Spellbomb)

E- recycling/copying tricks: Saga can be copied with Thespian's Stage after it hits its token trigger, meaning you can make tokens with it every turn and never lose the mana. You can also recycle Saga and keep using it's busted abilities with cards like [[Life from the Loam]] and [[Wrenn and Six]], making it unbelievably problematic in games that aren't decided very quickly. In essence, Saga can create engines that win games through grinding out 'free' material that are relatively difficult to stop. Since it's a land, traditional removal doesn't work on it, and since it can be recycled, if you don't have something like a [[Pithing Needle]] to shut it down, even if you manage to kill it off once, it can be brought back any number of times to keep being a problem. Lots of control decks use it is a win condition/engine for this very purpose and let you fill the rest of your deck with removal/counter/control junk and just say 'no' to whatever opponent is doing while you let Saga win for you

Here's a hypothetical game showing you what I'm talking about:

Turn 1- play island, play Delver, pass

Turn 2- (hopefully) flip Delver, play Saga, swing for 3 with 2 mana up for interaction (17 life left)

On opponent's turn- counter or remove whatever opponent does

Turn 3- play a land, attack with Delver, pass (14 life left) (you've got 3 mana up to counter/remove if necessary)

End of opponent's turn- tap out to create a token if you didn't have to interact

Turn 4- Saga's suicide ability triggers, you tap out to create a second token in response, then fetch an artifact (depending on what you need) and swing with Delver and the first token (8 life left)

Turn 5- you swing with everything and GG


The only real problems with Saga are that 1- it costs 50 bucks a pop (meaning that each copy of it is worth an entire budget deck), 2- it only produces colorless mana (so it throws off your mana curve slightly and limits the colors you can play), and 3- it suicides itself so you can't rely on it for mana for very long (but notably it can replace itself if necessary). In a build like this, you could add in Saga and a few artifacts like [[Aether Spellbomb]] or [[Pyrite Spellbomb]], or you could just run your 4 Mishra's Baubles (which you desperately want to run anyway (they combo off of everything)), as Saga can fetch one and they replace themselves while giving you a peek at a topdeck (you can use this on yourself to see if Delver will flip and/or use a fetchland or draw effect to help Delver flip). So, you play it, either get critter tokens off of it or use it for mana short term, then get an artifact that sacs itself and gives you instant

In all reality, going with Saga in an otherwise budget build is probably a bad idea. You could just as easily spend MUCH less and ramp up the build with cards like [[Fiery Islet]], [[Spell Pierce]], [[Sink Into Stupor // Soporific Springs]], [[Spirebluff Canal]], and [[Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft]], or just make minor tweaks to the build and keep it budget friendly but running more smoothly. I'd advise against running them personally. If you want to sink more money into the deck, there are just easier/cheaper/better ways to do it.

If you need more help, just let me know.

Always a fun deck setup. Couple things to help here:

I'll give some general advice as well as suggestions for what to keep/swap out/add/shave

Getting delirium with Rage Channeler will be hard with so few card types and no fetch lands. You've got creature, instant, and sorcery covered, but you'll struggle to find the fourth type the whole game unless you get lucky, so we'll address that below. Unfortunately the delver build is almost exclusively designed to take advantage of Urza's Saga, which you can't use due to budgetary issues, so we're going to have to get creative on how to round that out a bit.

Monument to Endurance doesn't have any good engine mechanics in here, so you can shave it. Flameblast and Sphinx are too expensive and can be shaved. The Mirari Conjecture is too slow and expensive and can be shaved.

This deck's best friend is Mishra's Bauble, and you should absolutely run 4 of them. They're free cantrips (replace themselves), and up your artifact count for delirium, exactly what this build needs.

Your land base is very slow for what the build wants (turn 1 critter hitting the ground running, followed up by protecting that critter and removing obstacles), but that really can't be helped due to the budget without resigning yourself to only running basics. However, you can take advantage of some of the cheap tapped lands to boost the two mechanics you've got running here. [[Rush of Inspiration // Crackling Falls]] will be checked by Delver as a spell, flipping it, but you can play it as a tapped dual land if you need it, or cast it later in the game. [[Bountiful Landscape]] can be played turn 1 into a tapped basic or utilized turn 2 for a two-drop before you sac it off for your basic. In either case, you get what you need out of it, and since it's a fetch land, you up the delirium count. I'd recommend running those two over Avishkar Raceway, Swiftwater Cliffs, and Temple of Epiphany (even if this helps Delver).

[[Preordain]] gives you the scry to help Delver, costs less than a buck, and is better than Sleight of Hand.

All of the above brings you back to 64, so you still need to shave some cards.

I'd recommend shaving an Expressive Iteration (you can't play it turn 2 cause you can't take advantage of playing a land off it/don't have any mana to abuse it), a Treasure Hunt (the math is very much on you only drawing 1 card off it without help from a scry/surveil, and the potential benefits don't outweigh the two-drop draw 1 it's likely to be), a Dreadhorde Arcanist (it's conditional and slow (in the context of the deck that wants to play a critter turn 1 and then protect it)), and a Counterspell (the UU is harder to rely on in the early game, and holding up two mana to use it can/will slow you down (you've got 4 two-drop counters, which is probably too slow for the build)).

Just my thoughts, take em or leave em

I love the idea of Squee, and actually tried to squeeze him in here. I've tried to take advantage of his nifty engine ability for a long time, but can never justify him over faster or more potent options, which is a giant shame. He'd have to be run in a format that can't crank out a 5/5 flyer and token engine on turn 2 with mana up to protect it (modern is ludicrous). Maybe some day, who knows.

Yawgmoth's Bargain is bonkers of course, especially when you can run it with cards like [[Soul Spike]] and just draw through your whole deck and burn opponent out in a single turn, but it's only legal in vintage and kind of demands it's own build.

Either way, thanks for the feedback. I don't have enough time to be on here as I'd like, and I've been having some fun deck projects eat up my time on here lately so I haven't been able to check out what else is going on, but I'm always on the lookout for discussion of the game (which to me is by far the most fun part)

You very much want to cheat with the lands here to up the devotion to blue count, as right now you're going to get 4/10 of the cards flipped by Sanity as a value of 0. You can get around this by running [[Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn]], [[Sink Into Stupor // Soporific Springs]], and [[Lórien Revealed]], all of which will significantly improve the casting of Sanity and still act as lands.

I enjoy the little splash of control idea. Seems like a potentially profitable minor juke mainboarded. Just a couple thoughts on how to smooth it out a bit.

I like [[Ipnu Rivulet]] over Shelldock Isle, as it's not conditional and enters untapped, so you can hold up a Counterspell turn 2 if necessary and the curve is so low that you won't lose much life on it if you need the U mana anyway.

I also like [[Thought Scour]] over Preordain, as it obviously helps with your mill count basically for free, but also lets you cantrip Snap at instant speed if you need it. This also helps get Visions online a turn faster, and since they are both instants, you could (in theory) refill your hand in the endphase and have a full turn of refilled hand and mana ready to rumble.

You could also run a copy of [[Sink Into Stupor // Soporific Springs]] over an island, as you get the land drop if you need it, or the control element if you need it, so it's not a bad topdeck either way.

I'd also consider cutting Snap down to 3 copies so you don't get flooded with them without good grave targets (you need 3 mana most of the time, so they are slow up front but better mid game and as topdecks). Maybe run another cantrip or control card (speeds things up and are good targets for the Snaps you're running)

Just a few thoughts

The more I think about the [[Unearth]]/[[Snapcaster Mage]] interaction, the more I think it's just busted as all hell. So many opportunities for shenanigans. I could probably get away with shaving an Edict and a Bowmasters for a set.

Unearth pulls back Snap, Snap pulls back Truth, 3 mana gets you a 2/1 and 3 cards. God damn