Modern Golgari Loam Pox

Oh yeah, that's why Krosan Grip is the niche A/E removal of choice, though I may just be paranoid and it may be stupid to run it, hell, that may well have been the case since Twin got banned.

Oh hey, it's you, I found myself admiring your Pox lists a few years ago. I myself have played little Legacy Pox, only games I managed to get in with proxies in a very stale metagame 3 or so years ago. Though I am an 8-rack veteran, whatever that's worth xD.

Cling to Dust was originally in here, as a 2 of in fact, specifically because I thought running 2x Nether Spirit would be best and because every aspect of the card is useful; the lifegain against the worst matchups, the cantrip in late-game stalemates, the possibility to disrupt Uro and Snapcaster Mage decks. I eventually cut it for planeswalkers and Worm Harvest as the deck is very low on win conditions.

My concern with Bitterblossom is just how slow the deck is and just how susceptible to fast and direct damage strategies. But it may be something to look into. More generally, there are many directions in which one can go with threats in a build like this, what you are suggesting is an option I considered, especially [[Murderous Rider]], though figuring out how/if it is possible to keep playing Nether Spirit with riders in the deck seemed hellish and I don't currently have the time.

Damn, you're the first person I ever met to be on-board with the Spreading Algae plan. My concern is that the card does less than nothing when you do not have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I've considered running Traverse the Ulvenwald to make the synergy more consistent in strangling manabases but it seemed too clunky and even more draw and matchup dependent. 4x Barren Moor might be too much, especially side by side with manlands that come in tapped, but I want to have a decent-sized data-set before I decide whether 4 Moors causes too many intolerable losses of tempo.

The more I draw sample hands the more I think you are right about the removal, I mean, Lilianas and Vraska are all removal, except they are rather slow and solely sorcery speed. I genuinely did not even know Nissa of Shadowed Boughs was a card xD Though running her would indeed require a large restructuring of the deck.

Lastly, as for Vraska, Golgari Queen, I've no clue if she's good or not, I have some trepidations about running her but I am nonetheless eager to test her. Oh yeah, and splashes are impossible for me for budget reasons, otherwise all remaining colors would be something to look into and test and fetches would be present even in this 2 color list.

I guess I have a few questions about what you'd think would be the best approaches to refining this. If I were adamant about running Nether Spirit for reasons that may or may not have something to do with an unhealthy obsession with the card, what changes would it be best to make? And if I were willing to not run Nether Spirit, what would you recommend then in way of changes?

Replace tectonic with field of ruin. The land they get comes tapped into play.
Getting their lands to tap may also be a key strategy.

Why? Tectonic Edge is actual land destruction whereas Field of Ruin is not, plus Spreading Algae makes edge substantially better than field.

With field of ruin, you gain a land. You lose a land with tectonic, and tectonic only works if the opponent has 4 lands so you are not really having an ld deck with it.
You can also exploit the fact that with field of ruin, the land the opponent get comes into play tapped, by playing spreading algae on it, not only is this ld but it ensures that you remove their dual lands first, and by fishing out their basics as well, they will likely get stranded with fetchlands in their deck.

With life from the loam you will be able to retrieve field of ruin and remove a land from their deck each turn, while using tectonic you stand still and cannot develope your gameplan when they have just three lands in play (or 4 basics)

Also, what would allow you to play worm harvest faster and with a bigger yield of worms ?
Tectonic or field ?

Hmm, edge can keep them at virtually 2 lands if I happen to draw algae, and cards that are 2 mana or less should be easy to deal with for the entire duration of the game, but I get your point, though if I were to replace edge I'd go for Ghost Quarter however. Unless... isn't it the case that algae checks for state change? Does enchanting a tapped land really kill it outright?

I think an optimal version of this deck would run field of ruin at least as a one-of, but that would require more basics maindeck, which would require a more expensive manabase and likely fetch lands too.

Nah, it's me thinking too fast.
Spreading algae only destroys a land next time it taps. My bad :(

If you were going to commit to Nether Spirit, then you can afford to run another if you run Cling To Dust still, you can exile the multiples with it so they don't get stuck.

The argument against Bitterblossom is fair, but if unless the tokens are getting killed every turn, they will race your opponent. And on top of that, paired with life gain sources such as Cling To Dust and Murderous Riders front half, you can mitigate the life loss.

Murderous Rider is also a good option as a threat to pair with Spirit. The only time it'll end up in the graveyard is if you put it there via discard, or it gets discarded itself by opposing discard. But the fact it's a threat that recycles and doesn't go to the graveyard lets Spirit still function.

If you are looking for a bit more punch still, other options that had been tried are God Eternal Bontu, if you are going to have excess lands or something, it's a source of cards and a threat that is recursive and avoids your graveyard. She is more speculative then anything but is an option.


If you are going to move away from Nether Spirit, the biggest inclusions are Plague Engineer, Murderous Rider, Rotting Regisaur. A simple start would be to fit 2 of each. I would also recommend Bitterblossom or Ghast just as good fodder options, Bitterblossom being much better as it isn't graveyard reliant.

When it comes to figuring out numbers, generally the number used for Pox Win Cons are normally around 8 to 10. So in the current iteration of the list you have that 8. Which are the Nether Spirit, Worm Harvest, Lili Last Hope, Lili Wakers, Hissing Quag, and the Treetop Villages.

In the topic of Spreading Algae issues, the Legacy Lands version was using 4 Crop Rots, which is something you do not get access to. So perhaps in Modern it's not possible to pull off? Unless you decide to run alternative methods to get utility lands. The cheapest or efficient one is Elvish Reclaimer, but Modern lacks good utility lands to really abuse with him. Bojuka Bog and manlands really only the ones that come to mind.

Also, an option that may be worth trying is Field Of The Dead, it's counter intuitive with Smallpox, but if your intention is to go long, it could be worth it.

Thanks a lot for the input, I think you sold me on Bitterblossom, especially seeing as how it is a threat that does not rely in any way on the graveyard and goes wide unlike the spirit.
What's your view on Akuta, Born of Ash, and Never // Return ?

Akuta has haste, and you don't need to cast it. It's legendary, so you probably only need one.
Never//return is nice because you get to take out a planeswalker, and if your graveyard gets removed it still had impact on the game.

Akuta relying on you having more cards in hand is unrealistic, you are a deck looking to 1 for 1 often, and with liliana and smallpox, even less so.

Never // Return is ok? But it feels like a worse Murderous Rider.

You might be right with akuta, but it's one creature in an attrition scenario. Once he gets loam working, he will have the upper hand.

I don't fully remember what murderous rider does, except that when I saw it, I knew I wanted it. I have forgotten what it did, but knowing that I want it makes it good, so I'll trust your judgement on that one, as you seem to know your stuff :)

The thing is if you want a recurable threat, there are just better options that also have less restrictions to them. A large thing to also keep in mind is you don't want your threats to rely on other cards to be good. Akuta is relying on you to have a swamp to sacrifice, which this list only actually has 4, outside of Urborg, but then you are relying on Urborg now to provide fodder. Then you are also forced to rely on Loam to provide a hand size.

Which is also not realistic, since as you are loaming, you are likely playing out the lands to keep Akuta fed, using barren moor to cycle to get spells which will likely be cast immediately just in nature of pox decks with it's self discard,and also using the lands to fuel your retrace. It becomes alot of constriction on the cards in what they are asking you to do.

Murderous Rider is a 2/3 lifelink on the front, if it dies, goes on the bottom of your deck. Adventure is a Heroes Downfall that makes you lose 2 life. It's been seeing consistent play in legacy pox decks.

I agree as far as Akuta is concerned, the haste and the ability to block are good yes, but the narrow range of scenarios in which I can see myself being happy to recur Akuta kills the idea pretty convincingly.

Never // Return came to mind because it can exile extra creatures should a Nether Spirit get stranded in the graveyard. And as for Rider, milling it over seems like a real possibility that could hinder Spirit unless Cling to Dust is being run. All in all, the idea of running multiple creatures a non-zero number of which are Nether Spirit seems like something that could be either vindicated or eviscerated by some mathematical analysis (at least to some degree). Something to look into in the future.

I knew I wanted rider for a good reason :)

There are three ways to coax out the perfect number of nether spirits × other creatures in pox.
The first approach is to look at all the 1st place designs throughout time and compare them with the rest of the top 8 to see if there is a pattern. Second you can take all 1st place decks and copy the average number of creatures in them.
Third you play against the meta while measuring the efficiency of the individual cards. (Using paperstrips, like I do)

Of these three method two is the simplest and most easiest way to produce fast results.

In my 2018 pox I think there was 2 nether spirit, 4 mutavault and 8 racks.

I went through it and found that most use only 1 nether spirit or one rider, and then between 2-4 Mutavault.

One deck from the Filipines stood out by using 4 asylum visitor, which I found interesting.

The issue is that no one plays Loam Pox in modern, there's nothing to compare to. People used play a decent bit of 4 color Loam Pox before Faithless Looting got banned. But since Nether Spirit became legal in modern no one has really built, let alone placed with a deck like this. There is one similar list on TappedOut and there's also a few YouTube gameplay videos of similar decks but they are a lot more focused on Zombie Infestation or Knight of the Reliquary.

One thing I've learned is that sometimes decks hibernate for a while and then rise up as pretty much the same.
Most of the time decks go dormant for no apparent reasons, at other times it is clear what holds them back.
Much of the mechanics of what gets played is based on focus. There are a lot of people who doesn't want to do the hard work of thinking the designs through at just go with the popular variant.
Just because pox or loam pox isn't played a lot doesn't mean it's not playable.

The hard work would be to find a time in the format where pox/loam was present at a meta similar of the one today.
Today's meta is focussed on the graveyard, which it also was during 2018

I got both pox and loam as testdecks, but I've also got living end, instant reanimator (goryo's vengeance) hollowvine and other graveyard decks from the same era. They coexisted so to speak, so they would likely have the adaptations to meet each other.

If they coexisted back then, they should be able to do so now.
It's just a matter of studying what went on back then.

The closest deck you can look at for a shell of some kind if Eldrazi Winter Zombie Loam lists if you are trying to draw parallels to other lists. The issue being those are extremely out of date given how long ago Eldrazi Winter was.

The use of exiling the spare Nether Spirit to the aftermath have Never // Return is plausable, the thing is there is a better alternative in Cling To Dust, which isn't a one shot option, is fueled by Smallpox and Loam, while also being a card advantage engine.

But as a whole I think moving off Nether Spirit will likely be better? I understand it being a favorite, but it's a creature that has really been power crept, and also strangles you on options to be effective in lists.

Thebear:

Cling to dust with loam is pretty cool.
Cling to dust is also one of the major silver bullets against uro.

I'll go through my testdecks to look at the loam designs there. I don't remember any variants with zombies, and I got a lot of eldrazi decktypes from the same collection of testdecks. Are you thinking of bloodghast ? Or maybe gravecrawler ?

I took a look at your decks, and it's cool to see that you are also having 2018 decks.
You even have both eldrazi and loam from 2017, and the 2017 loam looks like the loam I got from 2018. I know I have one with seismic assault in it.

The variants with Zombies I had mentioned were related to the list in Eldrazi Winter using Squee and Loam to fuel Zombie Infestations.

I think squee was in legacy designs, you had a modern 2018 seismic loam so I assumed we were still comparing modern :)

Anyways I got 64 test decks from around 2018 (all proxy) I plan to post them all in here sooner or later. I can create a list with the names if you want to go through the nostalgia of seeing some of them. There might even be differences between your decks and mine that might be worth a talk ;)
Would you like me to list them ?

There doesn't seem much use in dwelling on lists from Eldrazi Winter. Graveyard hate was at an all time low, resulting in slow graveyard-reliant decks with a decent matchup spread actually being playable and performing well. But it is the Eldrazi Winter no more, Faithless Looting is banned, and Modern Loam pox (if it can be argued to even so much as exist) now looks nothing like what it did back then.

Ban changes are always the hardest to overcome, so people just give up by default. But the greater reality is that loam existed before faithless looting, and so can be changed accordingly. It's funny you think graveyard hatred was low during eldrazi winter, I remember death's shadow as present back then because both gurmag angler and death's shadow were large enough to halt most eldrazi. And how would eldrazi deal with decks like instant reanimator, or living end, hollowvine and so on. The answer is that through out april to december 2018 most eldrazi designs featured 4 relic of progenitus and 1-2 surgical extraction in the sideboard. Learn from the past or repeat it, or in magic terms, learn the past so you can copy it ;)

Look up haakon loam.
It was present between 2014, 2018 and into 2019.
No faithless looting there, and its bwg, which means you just add green.
I'm sure you can think up a hybrid.

Hakoon decks have an extremely polarized matchup spread, which I am not a fan of, the 3 colors are also a turn-off for budget reasons. I have built many Hakoon versions in the past and all of them, no matter the colors, felt clunky. I'm waiting for more knights like Nameless Inversion until I try that again. And even then, I'd lose to Hakoon's dies trigger after stabilizing too often for comfort.

Relic, Claw, and Surgical were gone a few months after Matthew Dilks came up with his first BW eldrazi deck after Oath of the Gatewatch released, and we're talking 2 years here.
https://untapleagues.com/forgotten-pasts-eldrazi-winter/
No relics here after 2017 here... No relics needed when you go Mimic into Mimic into Smasher swing for 15. It is true that Living end became the answer of choice to the Eldrazi and that shuffled sideboards a bunch, but then again, that's later on and relegated to sideboards.

Well, my decks are mainly from 2018, so I might have passed what you consider eldrazi winter, I got a lot of different eldrazi decks, like mono white, bloodbraid, colorless, ug, and tron, and probably some others I've forgotten about.

At modern nexus jordan boisvert covers a colorless eldrazi he used to win first place out of 400 at worcester during 2018, it has 4 relics and 1 surgical extraction, and he has used it two times recently with succes, though I didn't look at the sb of 2019 and 2020.

Posted my pox by the way ;)

Some dude called aleddin got something similar posted in mtggoldfish

Google:
Aleddin golgari landdestruction

Was it any of you guys ?