Hell of a thing...

Thanks dude. I too, have been impressed by how fast Seizan + Underworld shreds people apart. It's damn fast.

As much as I love spirits, next I want to either make a tribal for a different tribe or an EDH with one of the new legends from AR, Planechase 2012, or M13...Any ideas? =]

How about a human tribal using nothing from Zendikar block forward? It's at least something to have fun with. EDH with the new legends is also pretty good.

Hrm...Well that would certainly be a challenge. Only thing is I've recently made a Human tribal =/

I'm gonna have to look through the list of recent legends...

On a side note, can you think of a legend that can protect someone against Horobi, Death's Wail? Save for Maralen, it's Arty's best EDH and I loathe it...

Thrun & Co. Are always fun against Horobi players.

We have a local Thrun player...Thrun lives on occasion, but with Arty tutoring out Cauldron of Souls every game, not much else does D:

Maybe Avacyn, if I could get her out in time...but otherwise, I dunno haha.

Clever girl...

@surewhynot Would Uril work against Horobi?

Also, have you played Cathedral of War much? I'm debating whether I should put a few in my new exalted deck. Its a cool card but I'm wary of anything that comes in tapped. Help would be great man, here is the deck if you want to take a look.

Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=359849

this was a very great deck.btw im looking for help on my deck so i can play a tornment soon so any and every one check out my deck and help plz Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=361519

I was thinking about that. I think this deck could serve to get some more out of Urborg...gonna make some changes to the lands, lemme know what you think =]

I'm not sure it's really worth playing Rishadan Port if you only have two, it just seems kind of lackluster.

Hrm...I might up both port and urborg to 3...that should create the right kind of janky controlling land frame I'm looking for without straining too much =]

Also, if the Mannichi deck doesn't work well enough against Horobi...I now know what will. Here's a hint: remember that our group allows Nephilim to be generals >=}

:D Nephilim are amazing in EDH, I just wish more groups allowed them as Generals.

A 3/3 split is usually pretty nice, it gives you a good chance for what you need, without really warping the deck usually.

And as for Norin, yes! I've never seen a game of EDH that couldn't have been funnier just by adding Norin

Well our group actually has a guy with a Norin EDH so good that he only plays it on request O_O

It honestly surprises me that they haven't written in a rule for the Nephilim yet. They are all good, but not broken in EDH (though your Witch-Maw is damn close), and all have very "general-esque" abilities. Now that I know that Ink-Treader will wreck Horobi, I need to start figuring out the other part...how am I going to break this thing? (other than spitting image =P)

Norin is like that from time to time, but it's still fun usually.

I wouldn't say that Witch-Maw is broken, but functions more like a built in combo condition for my deck, like Maga. But without the whole having to design the deck specifically around it.
And I'm surprised your group doesn't count the Nephilim as Legendary when you're using them as a General, most people I've seen who are okay with it do.

Bounce cards on Ink-Treader are hilarious, Fire/Ice doubly can cause shenaigans, and oh so much more can happen! Ink-Treader acts like a forced Pox, it's great!

We do treat them as legendary, I was saying Spitting Image because of what it could do to a token swarm (It will make your brain hurt so don't think about it too hard =P)

Oh yeah, Witch-Maw is definitely not broken, it's just damn cool. Honestly my favorite Nephilim...it's just so god damn creepy looking, the artwork never stops blowing my mind, and it's ability kicks ass.

Ink-Treader is probably my second favorite, because it too has freaky artwork (seriously find a large picture of it and really LOOK at it...it's weird as hell), but also it's ability, much like Horobi in fact, changes the dynamics of what cards normally do.

Oh jeez... Swarm EDH is insane enough as it is man lol

Witch-Maw is my favourite as far as abilities are concerned, but I'd actually say I like Ink-Treader is my favourite for the art. It makes me think of something out of Lovecraft, and for a while I tried to convince the guy who runs the mod engine gaming clan I'm in to okay my using something like that as a skin in casual games.

Changing the way you have to think about designing and playing a deck is really one of the main reasons I like Dredge, things that work in Dredge have no business being a good card in almost anything else, and yet they can send it completely over the top. Horobi makes the word removal apply to so many things it's insane, Maralen makes toolboxes easier to keep together by making tutoring redundant, and so many more things I could list.
Changing how even one card works effects entire deck lists, and changing how a mechanic works can create new ones. Blood Artist is probably my favourite card to come out of the Innistrad block because it managed to make my Contamination deck meaner than reasonable, but it also made new decks because suddenly, losing creatures is now a good thing for me.

oh yeah, and as for your horobi issue, perhaps Eight-and-a-Half Tails?

Standard Storm? Hrm...I'll have to see what you mean by that.

And no, the way Horobi's ability works EaaHT would destroy himself by using his ability. Same goes with trying to revive Thrun (I think). That's why Uril also wouldn't be too good, since he needs to put aura's on to be beastly.

There's a guy in our playgroup with an insane Kuon, Orge Acendant EDH that tends to pose a big problem for Horobi, and my buddy Matt added in Avacyn to his Karador shenanigans EDH. So while Horobi isn't such a thing to worry about in multiplayer games, I suppose I gotta accept that in 1 vs 1, Horobi will kick my ass =P

IDEA! horobi's ability states when A creature is targeted, destroy it. You can target things and destroy them too. So YOU could abuse that too. use it against him.... target horobi with something. That will cause him to destroy himself! So to make this reliable, all you need is a general with a good target-creature ability, and make it your first priority to target horobi.

So i'll take the liberty of finding some good generals with 'target creature' abilities:

- Basandra, Battle Serpah
- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
- Eight-and-a-Hlaf-Tails
- Experiment Kraj
- Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer
- Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet
- Kamahl, Pit Fighter
- Kiku, Night's Flower
- Kumano, Master Yamabushi - Very good for using horobi against himself, exile his stuff!
- Kuro, Pitlord
- Mannichi, the Fevered Dream
- Memnarch
- Nin, the Pain Artist
- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
- Olivia Voldaren
- Oriss, Samite Guardian
- Sisters of Stone Death
- Teysa, Orzhov Scion (her + Painter's Servant (naming black) + 3 other things = exile as many creatures as you want!)
- Visara, the Dreadful (gets around Thrun too!)
- Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter

So take your pick, and i hope it goes well!

Oh yeah, i almost forgot my favourite! Bosh, Iron Golem

Bosh is my general in EDH (my list - http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=359910)

I've actually been considering making a Mannichi EDH since he's so unusual. He'd probably work, since I could get him into play before Horobi and nail him before Arty can secure him with indestructibility (if Horobi becomes indestructible, it's basically game over). Plus, red is inherently fast enough to pose a threat before a wipe can happen. The final nice thing about Mannichi is Wumps has been working on a nasty Doran EDH, and Mannichi would wreck it...

At some point I do want to make an Olivia Voldaren EDH...everyone in my group basically gave me rights to it because I'm the "vampire guy" haha.

Actually, damn, his ability is a blanket ability, which doesn't target...Still, I don't have a mono red EDH, and I think it's about time. Red is the king of "target" kind of stuff too, what with burn, pumps, pingers, etc. so the deck would still probably pose a threat =]

glad i could help :)

Kumano is probably the best general against Horobi 1v1, but I think if you have Soltari Guerrillas you can just wipe his board. Or you can use Wave of Indifference and Rolling Thunder-type spells until it gets to the point where he just doesn't cast his commander :)

Norin the Wary would always be fun as a way to play with Horobi on the table.

The issue with Kumano is he costs more to play than Horobi, and the key thing is I need to be able to deal with him ASAP. I think Mannichi will do the trick, not his ability (really wish it was a target thing =/) but just the likelihood that a red deck designed the way I'm going to make this one should give Horobi trouble. Plus as I said above, I have a failsafe if I have to =]

And WnB, isn't Norin interesting in ANY game?

hey, you might have noticed i did in fact find your Mannichi 'deck'. and yes. Norin makes every game fun. I know a guy who actually runs that as a general, he's even got all the Portal Block stuff, so he does it right!

How could Horobi become indestructible? You can't hook auras on him and you can't equip him (both require targets and are a spell and ability respectively).

Blanket/global effects dude. Eldrazi Monument is one I know he uses, for example.

colonthreemeow has deleted this comment.

It seems a little dangerous to me to have to sac a creature every turn, but if it works, it works :O Otherwise, black has no options for indestructibility

Or you could run Asceticism and avoid all problems :)

In mono black, killing things to reach a higher goal is always an option, and so using "risky" artifacts for stuff like that is no big deal.

While I'm normally a big fan of the bell in your typical discard deck, this...isn't the typical discard deck. This deck is more of a "clock" deck that uses hand manipulation to further its means to and end. It's safe to say that at any given time, the opponent will have a very different hand than they had just a few moments ago. If there's one thing that makes people rage when playing against this...it's that. People go crazy when their hand is constantly changing =P

Makes sense. Love the deck btw. Any deck that leaves you with the impression of evil im a fan of. Id say this definitely accomplishes that