I did list the suggestion specifically here in BrainDamage's version for a reason. ;) Since he's playing the control version and neither of us (FyreFiend & Kharay1977) are. And yes, they can just return a land each and every turn... the net result of which is... what? Exactly, being stuck at the same amount of land indefinitely. Now, that will slow you down, no matter who you are. So, it offers 3 things: - Possible board control, unless they're willing to take a loss of life, in which: - Counters on Bloodchief Ascension. and last but definitely not least: - Possibly: the time needed to pull the kill off, unless the opponent is playing a very low mana curve deck. And... all that... for naught. It costs {4} to play and from that point on will simply keep doing its thing, over and over again. I think that's a fairly good deal, to be quite honest.
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- Mulligan till you have Treasure Hunt? Errrh... right... good luck with that. - 1 Manabond? Like, keep drawing land until you finally draw that one Manabond? Good luck with that as well. Most decks, even really slow ones will have beaten you long before you finally draw it in case it's at the very bottom of your library. The concept is kind of interesting, but... you can do better than this. Have a look at my Speedfall deck to see a slightly more effective way of laying down a lot of land and actually also having a better and more immediate use for them.
... and I chose to go with the option of at least safeguarding the, to me, most important card of the whole combo - Maralen. By adding 4 Lightning Greaves. Even if all my Bloodchief Ascensions get destroyed, I'll at least be able to mill them to their death. As the three of us have said time and time again, throughout the comment sections of the three versions - it's 3 distinctly different versions. All with their own strengths and weaknesses. Which, I think, is a very good thing actually. Not only will it give the three of us a lot of (varying) feedback, it will also allow us to lay the three versions side by side and see what strengths we can adopt from one another. For example, ultimately I did replace even the Vedalken Engineer by now, with an idea I originally got from BrainDamage's version - Wall of Souls. Which, in turn was something I was after by being inspired by your version, FyreFiend - I concluded that one of the key weaknesses of my version was the lack of causes for loss of life. That has been remedied in two ways, the Wall and the Inkfathom Infiltrator. Personally, after all this inspiration and after going through many versions of the deck, I'm at least happy with my version and I hope that the both of you will find your own sweet spot for your versions as well. I still think we should all hold true to our own original idea and not simply start copying each other in every detail. It's better this way, also for the Magic community at large. To see what does work, what doesn't work, all that jazz.
Order of play: - Play Lightning Greaves - Play Maralen. - Due to priority be able to respond first to Maralen entering the battlefield, equip her with Greaves. Done... Sure, they can also have stuff in their deck to remove the Greaves, but honestly... it is completely impossible to build a deck that is safe from every other deck out there. There is simply no such thing as an unbeatable combo.
"Thanks for the defeatist attitudes by the way, and the comments telling me what I already know." -- If you don't want feedback, don't post the deck on MTGVault.com. Imp's Mischief - Fine card in your deck, very fine. As long as you reserve it for the most immediate and important attacks made against your version of the deck, Disenchants, Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, Go for the Throats, etc, etc, then the cost to your life will be manageable. Especially considering the fact that you will pull off the Bloodchief Ascension quest fairly quickly and thus will have a means to recover life lost. Breaking Point - I think you'll have enough in the BSZ. Let's say you're playing against a life gainer of some type, or a deck that is capable of preventing the damage of Breaking Point (which isn't very hard to do). Sure, Breaking Point is cheaper to use than BSZ, but... what you also need to remember is that you don't need to pump in a lot of mana for it to be effective. Here's why - if you really need to wipe the board of a massive number of creatures, those are probably going to be smaller creatures. Sure, it's easy enough to create an infinite large army of infinitely large creatures, but, seriously, if you play against such a deck, you're doomed to begin with. Most commonly, if you need mass creature removal/destruction/obstruction, they're going to be tiny creatures. Weenie. So... just drop 1 or 2 -1/-1 counters on them with BSZ and the most immediate threat is over. For larger creatures you already have direct, single target creature removal. One thing you may want to consider though - Diabolic Edict. Against those decks and creatures that you can't remove because they're protected. Just a thought. Volcanic Fallout I like, actually. Again, most commonly if you really need to hit a lot of creatures at once, they're going to be smaller creatures. Take care of that last big one they have with a Diabolic Edict, Go for the Throat or... whatever.
Noble Benefactor: MAY search. It is not mandatory. Maralen's search however IS mandatory. The only other approach to making it mandatory would be to use Fertilid ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220452 ). Which is an interesting approach as well, mind you. Perfectly fine approach. It's just different. The Maralen approach accomplishes 2 things at once though - it forces the search and it completes the quest on Bloodchief Ascension at the same time.
True, Rain of Gore would be risky. But, well... as long as you keep your opponent at a lower life total than yourself, you'll be fine. And since your version is mostly about hammering out the Bloodchief's quest counters fast anyway... Anyhow, were just some random cards I found while looking for some improvements for your version. I'm a bit stumped on my own version so decided to take a crack at some possible improvements for yours.
For your consideration: - Blood Clock ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=84709 ) - Board control which has some use in conjunction with the Bloodchief Ascension.
Some cards for your consideration, none of them really fitting what you described, but who knows: - Hissing Miasma ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96922 ) - Rain of Gore ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107358 ) - Contaminated Ground ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193608 )
How about aggressive control?... ;)
A key reason for me to use Glissa as opposed to other means is that whereas your version, FyreFiend, is rich in ways of completing the quest on the Bloodchief Ascension, that single element was turning out just a mild hint weak in my version. At least in my opinion. I'm still not sure on keeping her though. It all comes down to being able to generate {G} without suffering in {U} or {B}. All in all though I am so glad that the three of us have stuck with the core concept of our own version of the deck. FyreFiend is hellbent on sticking with causing loss of life, completing the quest. BrainDamage, absolutely sure about going defense, going control. And me, absolutely passionate about getting Maralen out and letting her do the talking. It'd be absolutely wonderful to actually see all three decks in action, in close proximity. In the same tournament or something. But, well... that... might prove challenging indeed. Not the least of which - distance. *grin*
I was actually looking at Vampire Nighthawk. But, all in all, I think Glissa is a slightly better option, as long as I find solid ways to generate {G}. Not only is she a far more aggressive creature in combat, she also has that secondary ability of being able to retrieve Artifacts from my GY. An aim for the cards I select has always been to have multiple uses for single cards. Such as replacing Aethermage with Herald, so I can search for 2 cards at once for actually 1 mana less. Which is not to say the Nighthawk wouldn't do well in the deck, it would do just fine. It's just that slight edge Glissa has, in my opinion anyhow. We'll see how sample hands turn out.
It's very interesting indeed, the three different approaches. Personally, I still feel most comfortable with my version. But there is something to be said for the other versions as well. Pro's and cons regarding the three versions, in my opinion: My version: Pro: It will pull off the Maralen / Bloodchief Ascension / Archive Trap combo. Con: ... or die trying. That's the primary thing I can see going wrong at this time - an even faster deck really hammering Maralen. Summary: In my opinion the most pure of the three approaches, really intent on pulling off the 3 card combo. FyreFiend's version: Pro: It will pull off the Bloodchief Ascension's quest, no doubt about that. Con: Thing I can see going wrong here, well... mostly, life gaining and delaying your chances of dropping Maralen on the table. Summary: The most aggressive one with regards to the quest on the Bloodchief Ascension. BrainDamage's version: Pro: Stability. Con: Lack of speed. Summary: In the end, this version will probably perform the best against the widest range of decks it faces, of the three versions. It would definitely be incredibly interesting to see all three of them actually make it into reality. I'm still stumped for money however, so... it might take me a while to actually build it, really not having any luck whatsoever landing a new job. ;)
I was going back and forth on the Underground River as well, reason I ultimately did decide to keep them in - card drawing. Ultimately, chances are very good I will draw a land that'll offer me both {U} and {B} as well, without hurting me. Next to the Underground River. So, use the Underground River's {U} or {B} for just turn 1 or 2 at the most and use it for its colorless mana for the remainder of the game. I'm where you are right now, contemplating a lot of things as a result of sample hands.
It's a different approach indeed, the end result being the same obviously. Aren't you worried about really aggressive decks? I mean - in my approach I'm being the aggressive one, pumping out the combo as fast as I can. In your version, you're basically waiting for Maralen. And given the fact she will hurt you as well as your opponent, aren't you worried that in the meanwhile, while you were waiting for her to appear from your library, you will have suffered too much damage to be able to get away with casting her? Or are you going about it in the fashion I was considering for a while as well - using other means to satisfy the quest on Bloodchief Ascension and simply casting Maralen at the last second, when the quest is (nearly) done? That is a very viable play as well, truth be told. One I'd probably see on the board more than once, even with my version. Just hacking away at them with Creeping Tar Pit or something. Or randomly countering stuff with Countersquall.
Misery Charm - http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=39466 Strongarm Tactics - http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=26349 Cheap ways of (hopefully) making sure you satisfy the conditions for the counters on Ascension.
Beseech the Queen is a good option indeed. Too bad about the converted mana cost condition. Otherwise it'd be perfect if you pulled an opening hand with 2 Dark Rituals and Beseech. ;) So you could have Maralen out by Turn 2.
It could still work though, just start spamming a lot of tokens first. There's plenty of methods of getting a lot of tokens out quickly. And, once you do have them... don't go with simply having 2 billion land in the deck, have a look at this one instead: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewCard.aspx?CardName=Scouting%20Trek&Edition=INV So... tasks: - Create 19 tokens. - Play the Scouting Trek, drop 20 land on top. - Play Treasure Hunt, pull the 20 land from your library. - Use Firestorm to deal 20 damage to 19 tokens and your opponent. ;)
Well, I suppose maybe it wouldn't work ideally for you. I still think not copying the Archive is a waste, I mean - 26 cards gone for just 2 mana is just so incredibly wicked. Not to mention the fact you just spent just 2 mana to cause 52 loss of life and gain 52 life (assuming the quest on the Ascension has completed). Those are some wicked returns for just 2 mana. The Scepter... could be interesting indeed, if you can drop it early on. Very early on indeed. By the way, have another look at mine, I changed some stuff, have a look at my own bottom comment for a small summary. I like where we're going with these - race you to actually building these decks? Would be wonderful to pit them against each other. :P See who has the more viscious version.
3 colours can work just fine with the proper lands. Although those do make the deck more expensive to buy. ;) Have a new look at mine, by the way, I changed some things and added a useful sideboard. One that I may still need to think on some more, I want to find a better way to drop Child quickly and then have it die quickly. As a means of board control. Or rather, as a means for countering board control. ;) Reason I did go with Trap AND Twincast - draw chances, mostly. But, also, so far I haven't found anything more useful, at least in my version and this way, it can dish out so much mill. At the moment it's 144 cards. ;) Unless I move an Elixir from SB to the deck. Then it's... well, infinite really. ;)
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