Type of Players Type of Decks

What is the difference between a combo and synergy?

Generally, a combo is a combination of cards that creates a loop, like Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond, or otherwise creates a game winning advantage, like Channel + Fireball. Combos include any sort of infinite combo, lock, or recursive loop.
Synergy is where two (or more) cards combine to get more than just the sum of their parts. For example, Pawn of Ulamog + Bloodthrone Vampire. Whenever you sac something to Bloodthrone Vampire you get an extra creature to sac from Pawn of Ulamog essentially doubling the vamp's ability.

Good question.
Most people say that Combo decks involve Infinite Loops.
So this is not a real combo deck.
And Most people say that if you add two cards together and they produce an extra effect...that is synergy.

A combo is an interaction between two cards that leads to game-ending advantage through a self-sustaining repeatable loop, an infinite loop, or a lock.

An interaction between two cards is merely some kind of synergy between their effects that works to create advantage that neither card inherently has.

So technically this deck isn't Combo.
However...to me it is still a Combo deck because it wins by using multiple cards together.
It wins by combining one idea using several different cards to produce the same outcome.

I will put it in the notes, that Combos usually create Loops.

I don't see why a combo has to create an infinite loop. I would say that a combo is more of a set of cards, two or more, that typically are ineffective on their own, but combo incredibly well together.

An example of this would be something I use in my Grixis Modern deck, with Grixis Grimblade and Fists of the Demigod.

Normally, Grixis grimblade is fairly meh on his own. A 2/1 multi-colored Zombie Warrior. Fists of the Demigod is just an aura that only functions on certain colored permanents.

However, you put them together and suddenly the grimblade is a whopping 5/4 first strike, death touch and wither monster able to obliterate basically anything in its way.

Synergy, in my opinion, are cards that function well on their own, or function in mass-combo settings, such as Muktol's example of Pawn of Ulamog and Bloodthrone vampire. Pawn of Ulamog performs well in any setting where many creatures will be put into the graveyard or die. Bloodthrone vampire is useful in any deck that can afford sacrificing creatures or tokens. However, if they are outside of decks that work well in those situations, they lose their edge.

I'd put combo more on card interaction and synergy more on deck interaction.

From <a href="http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/lo/304"> External Link: Synergy</a>
"In Magic, synergy is simply the realization and concept that certain cards are more effective when played with certain other cards. The cards, generally speaking, can function all right in and of themselves, but because of this synergy, produce more together than what they could when taken in isolation."

So synergy (also from this site: "We started this article on synergy with an Aristotle quote. Synergy, the word, comes from a Greek root meaning "working together."") is an interaction between two cards. So every combo is also a synergy but it has to be something more or else we wouldn't need a distinction between the two. The thing I mentioned above (infinite combo, lock, or recursive loop) is only my opinion because there is no magic rule when a synergy stops and a combo starts.

*Finish for me* because more would fall under the purview of philosophy ;)

Yeah. I agree. A combo is synergy and synergy is combo.
And you can have synergy in any deck, in theory.
Synergy in an Aggro deck with Rancor and a Fatty Creature.
Synergy in a Control deck with Contamination and Ophiomancer.
Synergy in a Combo deck with High Tide/Palinchron.

Nice discussion guys and gal!!!

I think synergy is more the general interaction of cards where as combo is a specific. I.e a deck can have synergy as all the cards work well together however this will be made up of individual combo's. If you think about it you never discus a combo without mentioning specific cards whilst synergy can be discussed at a deck or even set level.

Good point Sohlon..

A great example I would like to point out for us older vault members was my Gilder Bairn deck. It used Gilder Bairn, Training Grounds, and Paradise Mantle to create and infinite doubling of counters of any type. People went crazy over it because unlike Vorel, it works on ANY permanent, thus it could allow a freshly dropped planeswalker to ultimate as soon as they hit the field and still have plenty of loyalty on them to do it again next turn. Those three cards together make a combo that can synergize with other cards and thus makes it a combo style deck that focuses on synergy.

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/turn-4-kiora-99-kraken-combo/

Myself, I identify with all three types and have multiple real life decks that fit into the various player types. I also have many decks that fall into the various deck types. While I don't have a preferred type for either player or deck, I can easily pick up a deck and run it without issue. Most people prefer one type overall for decks, but that can change over time. Currently I favor aggro a bit more over combo or control, but I'm about to start working on a modern control deck after seeing the new cards in Dragons (which was fully teased this morning! mythicspoiler.com), so I might start leaning towards that deck type in the future depending on how the deck performs

Yes, I have found a nasty little combo with the new Dragon cards too.
Will post it asap...whenever mtgvault gets them in the database.

I suck at aggro.
No doubt about it.
That is my weak spot.
I just can't seem to make them any good.

Yeah I'm looking forward to dragons too. I'm altering my old legacy green white super ramp with dromoka and her peeps. It could theoretically drop two enduring scalelord by turn two and allow me to make them uber fat for turn three and game

As far as aggro goes, everything should be about the combat phase. If it says attacking, probably means it's aggro. If it has haste, it's probably aggro. If it is an instant that buffs power, it's probably aggro. Its rather simple to make. Lots of high power, low mana cost creatures, that you can flood the board with. Try and cap off your cmc at three though. Makes it easier

Fast Dragons are unfair!
Ramp like a champ.

Jessie it's currently built for wurms. I've dropped 2 worldspine wurm on turn two and watched my opponent scoop

Oh...sorry...was unfamiliar with Dromoka...and we were talking about Dragons...sorry...I am dumb, lol.

All good bro. My friends are already dreading facing this thing with dragons in it. It's dangerous as fuck with just wurms rofl

Post it here, when it mtgvault gets the new cards.

Absolutely!

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/dragon-rush/

As promised, here is that deck! Enjoy!!!

Awesome!
Mtgvault made me a Johnny player, Couch.
I use to hate a lot of the decks on the Hot Page because they seemed like One Trick Ponies.
Cute. Novel. Interesting. Neat.
But none of them were hard core, meant to win, in your face decks.
And I use to rage against the Johnny decks.
But over time I came over to the Dark Side!

Well, I like to be creative, but I also like to win. Not at any cost of course, but I do like winning, and I do like playing at tournaments, so I'm not put off by the high cost of good cards.
That being said, I can't stand the incessant torrent of budget decks.
Yes, budget decks are nice for new players to start with. Yes, you can make some interesting combos with them. However the reason they are budget is that they are not good. You might sneak a win every 40 games against a tournament deck in the format your deck is for, but you won't top 8. I've built a few budget decks and won a few games with them. It was fun, it was hilarious, but I lost almost every round.
I think MTGvault should have a casual tab for players to but all of the budget decks into.
I am fond of decks that are creative, fun, easy for new players to understand, but also have enough power to be playable in a competitive setting. Which is why I have been building and playing Sneak Attack. Easy to play, easy to win, still rewards competent play and generally takes a giant dump on combo decks.

I can never afford the really good expensive cards (I don't have any cards over 20 dollars). So I never get to experience trying to build cards with really nice cards. So I do not have any say so on how to make a deck better that features a lot of really high end cards. I think that is an issue a lot of people have on this site. They can relate to playing Vampire Nighthawk. They can't relate to being countered spelled by Force of Will.
With that said...if they can relate to budget cards they are more likely to like budget decks and comment on budget decks. Thus...budget decks get a lot of attention. I look at people like PhyrexianPossum...and look at how damned evil her decks are...and I love the cards and the concept and admire all the pretty cards...but I have never touched or played with or against those cards. They might as well be on Mars, you know? So it is easier for me to relate to the cheap decks.

From what I understand you're more of a casual player right?
It is actually much easier to enjoy a game with high end cards than you think. Proxies are your friend. I generally proxy an entire deck and play 30 or so games before I make a commitment to build it. After all, I want to know that I'll play a deck I'm about to drop a grand on. Even now, 60 percent of my sneak attack deck is proxies.
If you enjoy it and play the game enough to justify it, drop 10 dollars here and there, or put 20 dollars away to save up for the deck you want to play. It takes very little time to build up enough funds to build the deck that you find the most fun to play that you can take to large events.
The best part about legacy is that almost everything retains value. Sure you get a few drops here and there, but more often than not you get to take advantage of the deals and get them cheap. For instance, Emrakul is getting reprinted in Modern Masters 2. So I just have to wait for the price to drop. It won't drop much, and then the set won't be printed anymore and the price will go back up and stabilize again.
If you enjoy interaction and playing the game more than anything else, legacy stoneblade, jund or death and taxes are fun decks. Do you want to play big dumb things and be the best timmy player you can be? 12 post, mud or sneak and show are the way to do it.
You have options. It's just time, patience and money.

Put them in the Sideboard.
Thanks!!!
I didn't even think about Extort.
I wanted...as much as possible to get "free" lifegain.
Stuff like Nyx-Fleece Ram is going to get me a life free. Every turn. And trigger Searing Meditation.
Same thing with Sun Droplet.
His creature attacks me for 2 damage, I put 2 counters on Sun Droplet, and next turn gain 1 life for "free" and trigger Searing Meditation and deal back 2 damage to the creature that hurt me to begin with.
Spirit Link. Same thing. Put it on his creature. He tries to attack me it triggers Searing Meditation.

Regardless, yes, Extort could very much work in this type of deck.
Good call!

Super man punch!!!
Nice.

Hehehe...

I've never had to deal with tournament players, but if someone sat there and said 'say go' to me every time it was my turn I'd probably gouge their eyes out.

Ha! I'd probably do the same thing if I was in your situation.

Sounds like a person to me. You meet all varieties averywhere you go. I have been fortunate enough that almost everyone at my local tourny scene is generally good natured and likes to have fun and understands that it is just a game.

My place is full of a lot of nice people. Though I hate them all because they are like, top-class tournament players and I struggle. xD

I place last in every tournament, and my decks and playstyle are pretty solid. :/

HAHAHA nice. Quite often I've found myself in that kind of situation, the other guy sits there and says "say go" and I let them know I'll say it when I damn well please...and then I just never say it hehe

Godo job though The_MoC!

Thanks everyone. I feel that justice was served at that Time Spiral Pre-release tournanent. As for my local tourney scene, I'm not sure what the player base is like, but I assume the tourney crowd can't all be people of that caliber.
A-1
B-3
C-4

Thanks Northy.

Already front-paged. Weeee~ Johnnys!

This site is full of them :)
They converted me!

Oh no! How horrible!

Thanks Granflux.
Hopefully a few people will learn something.
I love new people playing Magic...especially when you see that moment that Magic hooks them.

Haha its always wonderful. I can tell you've been playing for quite some time just like me. It's always nice to have a little refresher and gain a new perspective on the game. Helping the new people find the same adoration we've come to know for the furtherment of a deeper understanding always adds to our own toolbox of skills as well.
This was a really cool post and its the beginning of a lot of ideas...and who knows...maybe we'll all become spikes one day hahahaha!

Also...definitively a vorthos/johnny

Its not always so black and white as Timmy/Johnny/Spike.

You can definitely be a mix.

He could have just linked the article by MARO and been done.

I can already tell you 95+% of people on this site are Timmy's and Johnny's so this sort of seems like a waste frankly.

If we thought it was a waste, it'd not be on the hot page. :3

And i care how?

I dunno, you tell me. You're the one posting on the topic. If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't be here.

Maybe he is a rogue Spike? They do exist, or so I have heard!

Sorry Aaron.
It does have a deck though!!!
Lots of decks (some over 50 likes) have been Article decks just like this one...except the persons did not include an actual deck.

What would you add to make the Searing Meditation deck better...besides Fetch lands?
Please consider it will not be a Tourney deck.
Just a deck for fun.
What do you think of the deck?

I already know how you feel about Spikes.
I read a nice article, you sent me, about how everyone deep down is truly a Spike because Human beings want to win. No one wants to lose. So crappy players label themselves as Johnny or Timmy so that they don't have to try hard to earn the Spike title.

And I will fix your downvoted comments.
You were just giving your honest opinion, and I can respect that!

That's disconcerting.. You in the wrong neighborhood, foo!

We only exist in short bursts.

Honestly, attributing yourself as a Spike in a card game is setting yourself up for disappointment. If you put so much stock into winning every time at all costs, you're gonna rage out every time you get mana screwed, or pull no creatures. There's an element of chance in this game, you can't take it seriously and make it out alive every time. Statistics are against you.

Winning is fun. I want to win. but I want to have fun. I do not have fun if I go into a game and know I am going to win. I want to win in flashy ways. Ways that wow my opponents. Ways that BOGGLE THEIR MIIIIIINDS! That's just me, though.

I mean, I've lost 98% of my games at FNM and I don't feel about about it because... well. Everyone else there is super good.

Didn't even bother looking at the deck so i have no idea.

Winning just to win, especially when your deck badly outclasses you opponents isn't much fun. I have a deck that wins about 98% of the time. Why? because it has cards I got in the early days of the game I'd need to take out a second mortgage to get now. (If you really want to see: http://www.mtgvault.com/stevebugge/decks/old-school-blue/ ) It's not a lot of fun to play though, prevent your opponent from doing much and beat him in to submission with Air Elemental, pretty vanilla really. The most fun about playing this is the shock value of actually playing a TIme Walk or Ancestral recall and watching your opponents jaw drop because they've never seen one in real life. That said I prefer to try to build an unexpected combo from cards most ignore, and if I can do it for a total deck cost of around $20 all the better.

Sorry you did not approve.
At least state what type of Player you are and what type of deck you prefer using?

I was so hesitant to include archetypes like:
4. Tempo/Synergy
5. Melvin
6. Vorthos
7. Griefer
8. Mid-Range
9. Melthos
10. Etc etc etc

Mainly because everything leads back to the 3 Basic Combo, Control, Aggro decks.


Example, what is Mid-Range if nothing more than an Aggro deck with a twist (mana ramp)?
What is Melvin or Vorthos but a mindset? You can have a Melvin mindset and play Combo, Control, or Aggro. Same thing with Vorthos.

But yeah, Pox players are dicks! :)
And you sir, are a horrible person!

I can understand not wanting to add deck styles, as they can be categorized under the pillars usually, but as Melvin and Vorthos are mindsets, I see them more as flavorings for what already exists. It could be argued that the griefer is a mindset as well, since there are griefers of each primary type, so it's just another flavoring.


I've been told we're solitaire players in denial.
I take pride in that when it comes to MtG, so thank you! :D

Idk what Melvin or Melthos or Vorthos means. :(

Usually don't like Mark Rosewater...but he did a nice article about them:

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr278

It is Titled: Melvin and Vorthos: The mystery of the "missing" player profiles unravels.
Basically he explains he does not believe in them as archetypes.

Feel free to read it in your spare time.

jeeessiiiieeee

I wanna see a deck...

A particular deck...

A good deck. A deck I want! A deck that is neeeeeded!

I'd love to see a solid multiplayer deck. One that can take on a lot of people and go in swinging without having to worry about losing. Preferably one that can play in Modern. One that has no price limit on it. One that uses whatever it needs to win. We should build one.

Modern multiplayer? I vote for a tamanoa deck.

Dragon Stompy is usually pretty funny in Modern multiplayer.

Tamanoa deck?

Oh... that's just gross...

Tamanoa with searing meditation. then you just play the control game. anger of the gods, pyroclasm..... blasphemous act.... ya know.
Then of course you play city of brass and the pain lands.

Something that would be really interesting is playing like...

Endless whisper and a few Phage the Untouchable. Sac Phage and then hand it over to someone else and force them to lose. Haha. xD

Or cheat phage into play, have sundial of the infinite and with her trigger on the stack you end the turn. yaaaay. I am good at making bad decks mkay.

True. But just the overwhelming dread of knowing someone is going to be handed a Phage the Untouchable at any moment could make someone sweat. :P

WHO WILL IT BE?

Oh, how about you give me your fancy card over there or Ill hand you this Phage?

A new version of extort! Bwuahahahah!

Fun with multiplayer and Endless Whispers?

What about Raving Oni-Slave + Endless Whispers + Woebringer Demon.
Add in Sleeper Agent to the mix.
Bam. Oni and Sleeper Agent wrecks havoc.

Oni-Slave would do 3 damage to an opponent when you sack him to Woebringer Demon. Opponent would get him. They would choose to kill him and take 3 more damage.

And I am sure that control vs. owner issue is that Sleeper Agent would keep dying and go back to your hand not your opponents.

After some hasty looking up of cards;

http://www.mtgvault.com/couch312/decks/tamanoa-stuff/

Suggest cards that you would like to see in the list and I will do my best to find the best spot for them.

Haha. Yeah, there are lot of evil cards that could be used with Endless Whispers. A lot of OLD cards and demons/horrors tend to have ridiculous upkeep things. It'd be amusing to watch people struggle with you sacrificing a ton of creatures and sending them their way.

I'd say something like... mash Tamanoa with this...

http://www.mtgvault.com/fairemont/decks/ashling-burn/

http://www.mtgvault.com/couch312/decks/tamanoa-stuff/


>:D


EVIL!

BWUAHAHAHAHHA

Might not work.

That mark of Asylum though.... one sided Blasphemous Act?... Why not?

Why go one sided? Boros Reckoner, stuffy doll, phytohydra if you wanna go naya. Spitemare.. all sorts of fun stuff.
Basically do this http://www.mtgvault.com/themoc/decks/budget-global-burn/
And take it out of budget.

http://www.mtgvault.com/fairemont/decks/sorry-not-sorry/

I made something cute. Jessie! Check it out! :D

Now if you like a good combo deck...

http://www.mtgvault.com/granflux/decks/elemental-storm/

Elementals and Fling/Reckless Abandon = Fun times!

I will attack for 6 trample damage with Ball Lightning...and oh yeah, once that is done I will pay 1 red mana to do 4 more direct damage with Reckless Abandon.

Yep, I just did 10 damage using 4 mana.
Finally, sack those two tapped Mountains and play Fireblast.
4 more direct damage.
Usually you just won the game.
Red is so easy and pure!!

And +1 for your Nova deck Granflux

Always happy to support the need for interesting ideas;)

Maybe. But might have to add more instant and sorcery spells.

Yeah I was spitballing first thing that came to mind.

No, I hear you, it is a pretty solid idea.

Searing Meditation
Soulfire
A lot of red and white burn spells
It could be a good deck.

Thank you for this well written response.
Will check out the two mentioned decks.
And I agree...I like longer Kitchen Table games.

Isn't Timmy enough needs more suck.

For it to be properly Timmy you would need like 1/2 of your deck to be creatures with 4 cmc or higher and like 40 lands with no support spells what so ever.

Janky.
Will check it out.

You know, timmy decks don't have to suck. Sneak and Show was probably originally conceived by a timmy player. Just sayin.

Basically when it comes to Timmy's just build the worst possible deck you can imagine and then add a play set Sorrow's Path and you're golden.

Uh Sneak and Show was more likely a Johnny/Spike concoction not Timmy. Timmy has no inclination of winning in the slightest so sneaking an Emrakul into play that early in the game would most likely piss them off as players not excite them.

Timmy's just want to build up giant board states and smash their opponents to death in one fell swoop with huge fatties.
Johnny's try to string together these crazy off the wall combo's that generally never work out and results in them dying to overwhelming opposition after they're left defenseless.

Pretty sure I am a johnny player, and that doesn't sound like me at all.

Mwahahahaha at Aaron.
Yeah...Sorrow's Path sucks!!!

And Spikes...Well spikes just win. A LOT.

Dont bother Couch, dude's just a negative Nancy. If it's not made for tournament players, he regards it as utter nonsense. Ironic, I know.

well yeah, spikes don't care about creativity, they just netdeck whatever is on top and practice with it constantly. and if you beat them they call the judge to inspect your deck to see if they can disqualify you. and this is why nobody likes spike players. these are also the players that drive away new players that are just looking for a hobby to have fun with.

Mostly it's the net-decking that bothers me. If you trounce me with a deck of your own design, then hey, good on you. But killing me with someone else's deck? I don't see that as a win for you. Credit where credit is due.
Spikes are the min/maxers of magic. plus they usually have horrid personalities, so nobody wants to play with them anyway. They have a unique skill in draining all of the fun out of the game.

Uh i've been playing for a decade and i've never once seen or heard of anyone doing what you say spikes do. Sounds like some personal bias on your end. In terms of trying to get someone dq'ed that is.

Uh ohs. Fun Drainer 2000 activated.

"practice with it constantly" Isn't that what you're supposed to do if you plan on ever getting better as a player?

Sure, practicing is fine. that really wasn't meant as a derogatory thing.
And I have seen 4 different people do exactly as I have said above. personal experiences I guess.

Only time i've ever called a judge on someone was when they actually were playing illegal cards against me i don't think that makes me a dickish spike just following procedures.

Man you really do have a hard time looking at this game from any point of view that's not your own, don't you?
I've got roughly 30 or so active decks at a time. Instead of "practicing" playing one over and over again, I bounce around between them randomly, depending on whatever I feel like playing. Probably have roughly the same amount of play time per week as a spike with his one deck, minus the countless dry runs of theoretical hands that might come up. If you built your deck, you should have a pretty damn good idea of how it plays. This practice dry run stuff is the outcome of net-decking. Build something that everyone says is good and now you wanna figure out why? Is that the driving force?

Also i don't see what net decking has to do with anything and why you look down on them for it. Sure the idea's might not be exclusively theirs but that doesn't detract from the skill of the player piloting the deck or from his/hers understanding of the current meta game at his/hers lgs.
Not everyone has the time or patience to build a deck from scratch play testing it over countless hundreds of hours crunching any and all numbers down to a fine science.

And yes, I do have a bias against tournament players. Honestly though, the only difference is that you feel tourney is the ideal format of play, and I prefer multiplayer casual. The other assumption that the driving force is winning at all costs, while my driving force is drinking with my friends and coming up with strange and interesting stuff. I'm just glad that magic isn't so limited.

And I don't see why you look down on everyone playing for fun.

Because i have a drive to advance my knowledge and skill in this game and casual players don't have that.

That is how you wish to play, and that is fine. So is playing casually.
The reason I strongly dislike spike players is because of their "competitive master race" attitude. You play competitively and look down on everyone who doesn't. I don't look down on you, you just make the GAME unenjoyable for the players that just want to have fun.

I guess i value skill dictating my games more than just blind dumb luck.

So basically what I'm getting from this is that for spikes, magic Is an important part of their life, and for the rest of us, it is an important distraction from our life. Everyone who plays magic wants to advance their skill in the game, to assume anything less is completely ludicrous. Spikes take the shit too seriously, as if being better at magic is an important part of their self identity. The rest of us view it as a game and play as such. And because of that simple distinction, yes, I look down on you.

I guess I value enjoying the game for what it is, rather than just sit there bashing everyone's ideas.

"Let them hate me, so that they will but fear me." -Caligula.

Yeah, but no one fears you over a collectable card game.

At Aaron; something to keep in mind would be. You could dominate a tournament placing 1st and gain no respect from any other player in the room. But a guy that came in let's say 5th who gave advise along the way to the guys that came in 2nd 3rd will be valued as a better player overall.

Nothing wrong with a little hatemongering from time to time

No worries.
I love lively debate!!!
If this deck got people to talking, then it was a success.

Hahahahahaha love you guys.

Probably not.

Your deck sounds very Johnny. Will definitely check it out.

Thanks. Looks like mostly Johnny players :)

Thanks for your input. :)

And like most things, Magic goes better with beer

Indeed! That it does.

I'm fairly sure that would be a down grade.

Furnace of Rath...or Overblaze. ;)

Or you could just use any of the combos involving Sanguine Bond and win outright

Well this deck isn't black, bot that would be good too. :)

Red white or white black decks are the best at give and take in regards to life points. I prefer black since stopping loss of life is next to impossible, but damage is relatively easy to prevent by comparison