Discussion Forum

Ditto Deck

Ditto Deck
Theme: Copy opponent's permanents and play opponent's cards from his/her hand and library in order to play their own deck against them.

Any advice you experts can provide is very much welcome!


MAIN CARDS

The three main cards that are essential to the theme of this deck are:
Sculpting Steel
Copies an opponent's permanents.
Grinning Totem
Play any card from an opponent's library.
Sen Triplets
Play cards from an opponent's hand. Also defends against counterspelling.


SUPPORT CARDS

Prototype Portal
Allows multiple uses of Sculpting Steel and Grinning Totem. Also allows you to bring out Sen Triplets without colored mana.

Mycosynth Lattice
Ability 1: "All permanents are artifacts..."
Allows Sculpting Steel to copy any permanent on the battlefield.

Ability 2: "All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are colorless."
Useful "defensive" ability that screws with color-dependent decks.

Ability 3: "Players may spend mana as though it were mana of any color."
Allows you to play opponents' cards acquired from Grinning Totem and Sen Triplets using your colorless mana (see Mana below).

Liquimetal Coating
Pairs with Sculpting Steel and Divine Offering (see below) to allow copying of permanents. Much cheaper than bringing out Mycosynth Lattice.

Isochron Scepter
Divine Offering
Enlightened Tutor
Allows multiple uses of Divine Offering to destroy any of your opponents' permanents (which are made into artifacts by either Mycosynth Lattice or Liquimetal Coating).
Allows multiple uses of Enlightened Tutor to bring out the artifacts from this deck that you need.

Bottled Cloister
Disadvantage of Enlightened Tutor, which lets you search your library for an artifact card, is that the card must be placed on top of your library. Bottled Cloister lets you draw a card during your Upkeep, letting you still have your regular Draw step.
Bottled Cloister also removes your hand from the game during your opponents' turns, which helps defend against decks that force you to discard from your hand. This ability to remove your hand from the game during your opponents' turns pair well with the following card.

Ensnaring Bridge
With no cards in your hand from Bottled Cloister, only creatures with power greater than 0 can attack you during your opponents' turns. Helps defend against regular creature decks and annihilator decks.


MANA

Because the deck can be played colorlessly and needs a decent amount of mana to play your opponents' cards while also using your own artifacts' activated abilities, I decided to go with the following:
Cloudpost
Glimmerpost
Vesuva

Because your opponents will likely be using colored cards, I also included the following for colored mana production:
Glimmervoid
Darksteel Ingot



NOTES

I still have not put together a sideboard for this deck. Does anyone seen any glaring weaknesses that need to be addressed by certain cards in the sideboard?

Perhaps dealing with land destruction decks using Crucible of Worlds?

Or artifact destruction using Darksteel Forge or Leonin Abunas?

One major issue could be that I have 16 Lands. If I go for 20 Lands, what should the additional four be? If I do go for the four additional land cards, where should I cut back elsewhere in the deck?

As mentioned above, I'm really looking for any feedback people have to improve this deck, not just with the sideboard. If there are glaring weaknesses in the main deck, I'd like to address them with your suggestions!


Thanks for reading! =D
Posted 07 March 2011 at 08:18

Permalink

9 replies

question: why artifacts?

Lets say I wanted to build around a simular theme. This would be on my list (I haven't given this much thought, just first thing that pops up in my head)

- Vesuvan Shapeshifter
- Clone
- Man-o-War
- Equilibrium
- Bribery
- Cavern Harpy
- Sedraxis Alchemist
- Gilded Drake
- Capsize
...

Anyway the plan is simple, copy and bounce. Copy your opponents best creatures and bounce them back. Blue is good at this game and black can back up the plan with removal, discard, ressurection, ...

Although I love Sculpting Steel, it's crazy powerful, making your opponents stuff artifacts is to far fetched and isn't a good strategy (to many cards depending on other cards). Copy your own Sol Ring or Enigma Sphynx, now that is abuse!
0
Posted 07 March 2011 at 09:06

Permalink

I actually have an alternate version of this concept that I'm working on without artifacts, using some of the cards you mentioned. However, those cards seem to be mainly focused on creatures. Some decks aren't heavy on creatures, and so a deck focused on making use of opponents' creatures might not always be effective. There are some cards that target permanents in general, but they seem expensive. I'm still working on it!

Sculpting Steel with Liquimetal Coating and/or Mycosynth Lattice helps with copying all permanents. I am hoping that Divine Offering will assist with the removal that Black-colored cards might lend to a Blue/Black deck.

Also, the two other artifacts (Grinning Totem and Sen Triplets) really supplement Sculpting Steel to allow use of all of the opponents' cards, from battlefield, hand, and library, and not just creatures.

That's my long answer to your question "Why Artifacts?" =) Those three artifacts in particular I wanted to put together and build a deck around. Thus, when looking for cards to support those three, keeping the deck colorless and using other artifacts seemed be most ideal.

I'm definitely going to work on the Blue/Black version of this concept and post it here later, but first I want to see if I can get this Artifact version to be the best it can be! Any ideas?
0
Posted 07 March 2011 at 23:46

Permalink

[QUOTE=Druid523]However, those cards seem to be mainly focused on creatures. Some decks aren't heavy on creatures, and so a deck focused on making use of opponents' creatures might not always be effective. There are some cards that target permanents in general, but they seem expensive. I'm still working on it![/QUOTE]

This is true but there will be decks that you just can't beat with this kind of theme because it's slow. A burn deck for instance will kill you easily.
There are ofcourse the decks that play planeswalkers and shroud creatures and then your version might be more effective. Although in the UR version edict effects takes care of shroud creatures and capsize/Venser/Sedraxis Alchemist/Tradewind Rider all take care of permanents.

My advice for the artifact version remains the same as back when you first posted this concept, keep the mana curve as low as posssible and make the deck as fast as possible. A lot of board sweepers will help you stay alive early on when you need time to set up.
0
Posted 08 March 2011 at 07:54

Permalink

[QUOTE=Seth]This is true but there will be decks that you just can't beat with this kind of theme because it's slow. A burn deck for instance will kill you easily.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. The deck is slow. That is one of the things I'd like to fix. I considered using something like Lighthouse Chronologist, Magistrate's Scepter, or Time Sieve to gain an extra turn on my opponent, since playing the opponent's cards or copying his/her permanents just puts me at equal footing or even one step behind. What do you think?


[QUOTE=Seth]Keep the mana curve as low as possible and make the deck as fast as possible. A lot of board sweepers will help you stay alive early on when you need time to set up.[/QUOTE]

MANA CURVE
Do you have any particular cards in mind that might help with keeping the mana curve low? Before I had several costly cards; now I have nine cards costing 2, nine cards costing 3, and nine cards costing 4, with four cards costing 1, four cards costing 5, and four cards costing 6. Still, though, I wonder if there are other cards that would be better support that also help with the mana curve, like Voltaic Key or Rings of Brighthearth.

FASTER DECK
Do you mean besides the mana curve to speed it up? Like to help with drawing? Any particular cards come to mind?

BOARD SWEEPERS
What cards would help as board sweepers? Do you mean cards like Lux Cannon, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Oblivion Stone? What about pairing it with Darksteel Forge? Too expensive? Or did you mean something slower like Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, or Ratchet Bomb? Or maybe a creature like Steel Hellkite? I already have Divine Offering paired with Liquimetal Coating and Mycosynth Lattice.

Sorry for all the questions and card suggestions. I only really know so much about good card choices, which is why I'm looking for help again. =)
0
Posted 09 March 2011 at 07:11

Permalink

Well you haven't posted a decklist so I don't know your numbers. Just make sure you have a clear objective when building. Do not try to get a bunch of combo pieces into place that when combined do glorious things. Keep it simple, that always works best.
Not saying that you should not build in synergies, synergies are good but each card on it's own when not used in combination should be formidable as well.

Maybe you should just post what your problems are and what kind of decks currently kill your deck. The cards you mentioned here are unplayable in my group because the powerlevel of our games is just to high. That makes it difficult for me to say how you should build. I don't know your group and what they play.

For instance the only possible reason I would play Grinning Totem is that in a multiplayer game it can with reasonable certainty tutor me a solution at instant speed. For instance fetch me a swords to plowshares from my opponents deck to kill his Kozilek upon announcement of the combat step. It will cost me 2 extra mana but the instant speed tutoring for a solution brings a level of power to the board that is nice.

I would never use it to fetch one of my opponents creatures because it's far easier to play creatures myself and streamline my deck to what I play then it is to build a deck towards what my opponent could possibly play.

The reason to play a card like Vesuvan Shapeshifter is simular. My shapeshifter offers me multifunctional power that is adaptable to the sitation. My opponent plays a Primival Titan, I copy it for 2 mana, shoot down his Titan with lets say terminate, and attack with my vesuvan turned titan.
I do not include Vesuvan Shapeshifter because I'm hoping my opponent will play powerful creatures (like you say that would only make us even), I play it because it can be anything at any time at a very low mana cost and it offers so many solutions and synergies. These synergies start with the cards in my own deck but the shapeshifter can also interact with my opponent.

So while I like the theme you want to implement I would advise to build for offense, put pressure, overpower your opponent and dedicate only a small part of your deck to being adaptable to your opponents deck. Just like spot removal interacts with your opponent so does copying his best plays, but it's only those best plays you want to copy. You don't want his Sakura Tribe Elder, you want his eldrazi and fuck the rest of his deck, it doesn't concern you because your deck should be the better deck. Never build for defense.
0
Posted 09 March 2011 at 09:26

Permalink

I'm doing a quick response since I'm still at work! I checked my e-mail and caught the first line of your reply, though, so I wanted to address that quickly. I did post my deck list (if you click on the title in big letters "Ditto Deck" at the beginning of this thread). Here it is, as well:
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=157637

That'll give my numbers. =)

Will read the rest of your post and respond later!
0
Posted 09 March 2011 at 22:51

Permalink

that's actually an interesting build, I still remember your old build and it was far more chaotic. What I don't like is that you need Mycosynth Lattice to play Triplets. The landbase looks a bit shaky but I'm guessing it would work out most of the time.

In a deck like this I would play at least 4 sweepers, maybe All Is Dust would fit your deck although with 16 land it might not be fast enough. You want to be able to cast it turn 4 against agressive decks. Including 1xBalance might save a game here and there as well.
0
Posted 10 March 2011 at 07:59

Permalink

DECKS I STRUGGLE AGAINST
Land Destruction (i.e., Wasteland, Sinkhole, Stone Rain, etc.)
Artifact Destruction (i.e., many different cards!)
Control/Counter (i.e., Thoughtsieze, Force of Will, etc.)
Fast Damage Decks (i.e., Exalted decks, Goblin decks, etc.)

There are probably more, but those are the ones I can think of it currently.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[QUOTE=Seth]that's actually an interesting build, I still remember your old build and it was far more chaotic.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! And I agree. Ever since I first posted my original deck, I've been playing game after game to see where the weaknesses were, keeping in mind some of the things you said (e.g., mana curve). It is definitely cleaned up and become more focused since then!


[QUOTE=Seth]What I don't like is that you need Mycosynth Lattice to play Triplets.[/QUOTE]

You can also play it with Prototype Portal to make token copies of it with colorless, though that costs 9 total to bring out versus 5, unless I luck out with Glimmervoid and/or Darksteel Ingot.


[QUOTE=Seth]The landbase looks a bit shaky but I'm guessing it would work out most of the time.[/QUOTE]

I agree here, too. I want to put in 20 lands, but I'm not sure what additional four lands (or other mana producers) I should include. I tried playing with Urzatron, paired with 4 Forests and 4 Crop Rotations. Is there another land combo that might work better? I haven't tried my Metalworkers in a long while. I'm really at a loss here.

The reason I went most recently with Cloudposts, Glimmerposts, and Vesuva was to get a large base of colorless mana to help in placing permanents and using artifacts' activated abilities in combination with casting opponents' spells (assuming Lattice is out to help with casting colored spells). The Glimmervoids and Darksteel Ingots were to help in case Lattice isn't on the battlefield.

What do you think about Wastelands as the additional 4? They are expensive, I know, but I'm willing to invest if they're ideal for this deck. If not, what do you think might work well for land in this deck?


[QUOTE=Seth]In a deck like this I would play at least 4 sweepers, maybe All Is Dust would fit your deck although with 16 land it might not be fast enough. You want to be able to cast it turn 4 against agressive decks. Including 1xBalance might save a game here and there as well.[/QUOTE]

Assuming I can work out the mana production issue you acknowledged, All Is Dust might be manageable. Any other sweepers you can think of? Soulscour would be perfect, but it's very expensive.

This isn't a sweeper, but I found it while searching for other sweepers: Ethersworn Canonist. Thoughts?

Also, is Balance allowed in Legacy? I looked it up and it seems Banned, but I'm not entirely sure.
0
Posted 10 March 2011 at 10:33

Permalink

I'm puzzeled. All the cards you mentioned you struggle against are legacy tournament cards, you also noticed that Balance is not legal in legacy which is true. Your deck is a fun deck, it plays casual stuff that doesn't even remotely stand a chance in a legacy tournament. You cannot tweak this deck to match up to tier 1 legacy decks, if this is your intention I must confess I don't think it can be done.

If you want to make it more competitive start thinking turn 1 trinisphere for starters.

How the deck is, currently, I don't see the point of investing in wasteland.
0
Posted 10 March 2011 at 10:52

Permalink