Hell's trickery(Standard)

I've looked at that, but this deck is actually for standard, otherwise I would throw in a lot of other stuff too! thanks for the look, and glad you posted about the useless decks on front page. Always bothered me.

I'm not sure what you mean by mana cleaning. Should I add more mountains and swamps? Remember that this deck is standard, so it only uses standard duel lands. I put in one stensia bloodhall to have something to do with my mana in the late game if I'm low on cards. Let me know which ones I should adjust because I'm curious.

demonic tutor isn't standard, but it would go well with the theme. I don't think it is particularly necessary though since i have three and get them on a consistent basis. Also, this deck isn't based around torpor orb, and while having it is nice, it is not necessary to be successful. When this deck runs out of standard, I'll do a cleaning of the lands and creatures and spells to make it OP with non-standard cards.

Skinrender look even more like "the alien"!

yea him too hehe

perfect analysis, that's exactly what I was going for! I mixed in uncanny speeds too, but I wasn't sure if I should use them or Rush of Blood, which would give them a greater boost but no haste. Still not sure on that one, what do you think?

Between those two, I would probably take Uncanny Speeds. Rush of Blood will rarely boost more than 4, yet still costs an extra mana and doesn't give haste.
I think the haste works well with Undying as well - you can sac or survive removal in the first main phase, and still attack the same turn. It also lets you use the High Priest ability earlier than opponents might expect.

I know you commented on my GW humans, but would you have any suggestions for the sideboard? It always tends to be my weakest part.
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=327300

yea, go check it out. I left some advice!

thx man, any feedback on this one is great. How ya been doing? any more poems lately?

none at all. I haven't really been motivated to poop out anymore decks either because my two most recent Tournament Grade ones (A Grixis Cascade and a Standard Control Re-Hash) got COMPLETELY IGNORED.
and i put my dangalang into those ones :/

you fucking troll

you have overr 30 commoents on this over the last 6 hours and you just keep commenting i hate how all you fags spam commentts just to get to top deck, and yeah like this thing got up on top page in 10 hours ...... stoopid fucking trolls get a life
(enel39)

sorry to tell you this but you're wrong. Each of these people here helped me get to the top page. I only have 1 account on this site and this is the first time I've been on the front page. How did I do it? I seriously went around and commented on other people's decks with advice and comments. In turn they came and commented on mine. Turns out, Golden rule exists.

Not everyone is a troll, but you sure sound like one.

Cool R/B deck otherwise.

oh? last I checked -1/-1 counters removed +1/+1 counters. I'll have to look at that. Thanks for the heads up, i'll go check the rulings now.

you're right kromedrone, thx for letting me know, kinda sad, but at least the deck isn't based around that idea.

It happens. Still a nice effect. The only way to remove counters is something via Heartmeder, Aether Void, or that legendary creature from Kamigawa.

Anyhow, I've been wanting to get back into standard with my old color combo (G/W) mind taking a look at this?

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=330137

Thanks.

KromeDrone is actually WRONG in this case. Negative-one counters and plus-one counters do in fact cancel each other out. It's the reasons Fume Spitter is such a great tool for decks with Undying. The key to taking advantage of BSZ with Undying is to play BSZ for JUST enough to negate the positive counters and not kill the creature out right. If you kill the Undying creature with the negatives, Krome's right, they don't come back. It's a balancing act. :)

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28997231/undying_and_negative_counters

I'm sorry to say but actually he is right. In this case 2 state based effects are contradicting each other, in which case the undying effect checks the previous known state before the confliction and reacts to that state.

Its very technical, but you can check out the specific rulings here:

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2012/02/undying-creatures-and-black-suns-zenith/

Mercedes, a creature can have +1/+1 counters and still have -1/-1 counters. They're counters, and they'll stay on the creature till it leaves play.

a 2/2 with undying, dies and get's a +1/+1 counter. It's a 3/3. You BZS for 2. That creature will go down to 1/1. That +1/+1 counter is STILL THERE. If it wasn't, it would die.

A +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counter are two different types of counters. An Undying creature CANNOT return if it has a +1/+1 counter on it, so if you somehow give it a +1/+1 counter otherwise such as with Gavony Township, you will not get undying as it checks for +1/+1 counters.

No, that is not true. -1/-1 counters negate +1/+1 counters. If you add a +1/+1 counter, then add a -1/-1 counter, the creature has 0 counters remaining.

they even made a neat little card to show how it works:
http://www.abugames.com/images/products/tipstrickscards/counters_tip_magic_online.jpg

and here's the official rules:
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

However, it is important to note that the creature cant die. For example, if you have an undead Demonlord (6/5), and you hit BSZ for 5 counters, the Demonlord will die before the "remove counters
" clause resolves, and the lord wont come back. You can only use BSZ for 4 counters, so the Demonlord has 1 toughness left, so the +1/+1 counter can get removed after BSZ resolves. Then you can fling the demonlord (or something, that would only be a measly 2 damage) and he will come back.

This is a really powerful deck IF you get topor orb out. the pit-dweller is too dangerous in my opinion without the orb to run 4 of.

Despise is a better card than Appetite for Brains because most threats over 4 CMC is a creature or a planeswalker anyway. Despise provides more versatility to remove Snapcaster Mage or something. However, Appetite for Brains really shines against Reanimation/Unburial rights decks. That exile clause will save you countless times. "Oh ill just look at your hand. Wow, thats a nice Griselbrand! Oh look, you also have an unburial rights! Naughty! Goodbye Griselbrand!"

haha good point. Yea I'm aware of how demonlord undying works with torpor and BSZ. However, I think his risk is worth it. That and pitt-dweller makes this you kind of walk a dangerous rope and you need some balls to play it. Demons and devils SHOULD work like that imo, so it adds to the flavor. With proper removal it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Appetite for brains will be sided for heavy spell based decks, so it'll work out in the end. Thanks for the advice!

Another fun card with undying is Virulent Wound. For [B] you get another use out of an undying creature plus you have the option to take down a creature (champion of the parish, Snapcaster mage) before they get too dangerous.

GG wizards for making something make absolutely no sense, especially since they originally stated back in Shadowmoore that +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters were different.

They are different. Wizards just added a clause stating that a +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counter cannot co-exist on the same creature, as they cancel each other out and keeping them there is just redundant.

They are now. They originally did not cancel each other out back when Wither and Persist was introduced.

the thing i hate about losing the +1s is the fact that the only difference i can find that it makes to the game is that it removes the option of prolifing the +1s, which, when you think about it, is plain silly.

ooo, I like that! I love Hex parasites too! Don't know why I didn't think of them. Hmmm, let me work them in!

Haha I'd always use some Hex Parasites in my B/G/R Birthing Pod deck back when it was packed with Undying Creatures, so the combo was still fresh in my mind when I was looking through this decklist :)

What are some options you'd recommend for him to add? And what exactly is wrong? You just said "they are wrong"...?

Saoshyant_4329 has deleted this comment.

I know you and your friends were wondering about how to get decks on the front page. Actually, one thing I did that I noticed helped was I posted on other peoples decks comments that were legitimate attempts to help people. Like suggestions cards to take out or add, or just noticing combos they could use or simply liking a good deck. Then I asked if they had time to give some of my decks a look. Most people seemed happy to. Maybe try it out yourself. Look at what else is out there and help each other out. Because before I did that I also wondered how people got to the front page. Help out another, and maybe you get some in return. Golden rule and all that jazz.

^This is how I found this deck earlier this morning. It went on "upcoming" soon after and shot off after that.
Admittedly, "+1 for humans" is not that constructive or helpful. :P

you're right. sorry for the lack of constructive criticism there. But sometimes when looking at a deck I don't have much feedback to give. Other decks I had more. But the minimum I gave was a like and a comment at least. Its not enough for sure, but I did in fact take a look. Better to leave something positive behind after looking than nothing imho.

yea I saw it. At first I posted a reply, i have to say before fully reading the comment. Then I reread the comment and yes you are correct about only using BSZ for just enough to not kill, but in my mind this hinders BSZ's effectiveness anyway, which is not enough for 2 in the deck. 1 is enough, and in the case I need it for the minor 2nd use its there. :) THanks for checking into that too, appreciate it!

Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=327726

Yea, I saw yours (you can check the comments), but I had my own ideas about how I would've done it. This way its also standard. Great combo isn't it?

Forgot that was you. and yes it is a cool combo.

you got it, happy to help!

I thought about undying evil too, but what would you sub out. I think that torpor orb is good enough for vexing devil is first or 2nd turnable, which is when they would most likely need to trade the damage, and at that time I don't have mana for undying evil anyway. Though it would be funny to see them pay 4 life, only to have it come back bigger hehe.

yea no kidding. My original thought was to go legacy, cuz torpor orb really breaks a lot of cards out there. But then I figured in legacy format its just not useful enough, but the broken combos aren't broken enough in that format imo. So I decided for pure standard, in which this combo isn't broken, but still very effective. I'm finding that torpor orb itself counters a lot of decks out there that rely on bloodthirst, soulbound, and angel and human decks as well. Seems naturally advantageous against its standard opponents when humans aren't getting their +1/+1 counters from other humans entering the battlefield.

Also I wanted to add that it breaks snapcaster and geralf's messenger, who is just EVERYWHERE these days.

I think I'll switch out brains into the sideboard for the despise since early creatures does slow down my damage. remember that duress is no longer standard.

happy to help! nice deck btw ;) thx for the mention!

oh yah ill mention your decklist and actual name too lol

sure thing happy to help!

that would be a decent addition actually, especially with hex parasite to potentially eat the counters, but I don't want this deck to become gimicky or too heavy around torpor orb. I think in another deck using torpor orb and hex parasite or other artifact/blue/white I would use that. Cool idea though!

happy to help!

happy to help!

thanks man, first time for me. Really proud of this deck, people really seem to like it! How ya been btw? I'm looking forward to your next work of art.

happy to help!

cool dragons. Happy to help!

happy to help!

i like appetite for brains mostly for its potential to exile cards directly from hands, which with rebirth style/flashback decks is pretty invaluable as an option. 2 more hex parasites would be cool though, so I'll think about it. Also, I think witchbanes is enough in sideboard for now. Haven't needed more than two and 3 was unnecessary imo.

happy to help! cool spiders!

torpor orb does not effect urubrask because his abilities are state based and not triggered abilities. The creatures 'come into play tapped' rather than 'when this creature enters the battlefield, tap it'. If that makes any sense. Hope it helps.

sorry, but I'm not an idiot. Urubrasks' abilities are 'state based' abilities. The creatures 'come into play tapped' rather than 'when this creature enters the battlefield, tap it'. Please check rulings before calling someone an idiot, it has a tendency to backfire on you if you don't...

here is the link to his deck The Forbidden:
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=331038

happy to help!

sure no problem!

Even though it would kinda go against your torpor orb idea. Just a thought

I thought about that when I originally made the deck. In fact, in a trial version I had two. But in the end I realized that if I put them in, I would take out torpor orb. If I took out torpor orb, Pitt-Dweller is too dangerous and Ashmouth isn't so useful anymore. Also, only two creatures, Pitt and Ash, use Undying, so its probably not a good idea in general for this deck. And Undying evil on Vexing Devil simply means that opponents won't choose to take 4 dmg and its essentially a wasted spell.

Thanks for taking the time though to comment.

You wont use it until they make you sacrifice it because undying evil is an instant then without knowing they now have to take another fou or let you have a 5/4 turn two

nice fast mill deck, happy to help!

neat card. I it could be a nice addition, but I would feel more comfortable with it if I had more demons. 7 in a deck just isn't enough to make it viable for a trade. And actually, uncanny speed is useful in many ways. +3/+0 by itself is nice because I can attack for 3, then fling for another 3, thus doubling fling's potential. It also grants haste, which if you think about it is another turn to attack with my creature, and one turn less for my opponent to react. At only 2 I think uncanny speed creates an additional surprise factor and adds more damage output that will effectively startle opponents.

Imagine I have Hex Parasite and skirsdag high priest. I caste another creature, tap all three to make a 5/5 flying demon with the priest. Give him uncanny speed, swing with 8/5 flying haste, then only another two to fling. 16dmg my opponent never saw coming.

Happy to help with your deck. Great job on it too. It carries a similar feel to my deck but much cheaper cost and a different flair.

Ah, I never thought about the demon token/haste, that makes uncanny a lot scarier. :) It's still a good card to since your deck is more agro, I just have a hard time making agro decks. Thank again for the comment!

a little expensive and slow. The random insta-back is not so important in this deck either. Going for more early to early-mid game.

that's not a bad idea. I think I'll keep them in the sideboard just in case I run into Undying issues.

you see, I went over that many times in my head. Rush of blood or uncanny speed. I agree with your thinking, but it came down to this. 1 more mana is probably only 1 more damage since most creatures only have 4 power or less AND haste gives a surprise factor that is more valuable than squeezing out 1 damage in the case I mentioned before but I'll copy and paste here.

Imagine I have Hex Parasite and skirsdag high priest. I caste another creature, tap all three to make a 5/5 flying demon with the priest. Give him uncanny speed, swing with 8/5 flying haste, then only another two to fling. 16dmg my opponent never saw coming.

I'm happy to help! thanks for taking the time to think about Flayer. He's really cool, just wish he wasn't so darn expensive (6mana yeesh).

I'm sorry but you're mistaken. Torpor orb does in fact nullify the choice for Vexing Devil. Vexing Devil's ability triggers after it comes into play. If you read the card (or the rulings for that matter) you will notice that the ability only comes into effect "when Vexing Devil enters the battlefield". Torpor orb removes triggered abilities "when creatures enter the battlefield". Therefore opponents never get the chance to choose to take 4 damage or not. The same goes with Demonlord and Pit-Dweller in the same way.

Please check the rulings on both Torpor Orb and Vexing Devil if you're still not convinced.
Demonic Tutor is not standard, but Diabolic Tutor is. Perhaps you meant that one.
As for the 300+ likes... I can only thank the fans of this deck.

Yeah you're right the pay for happens after Vexing Devil comes into play. Torpor Orb stop the effect has the card comes into play not aftter it is all read in play.

no the ability triggers first, then waits for the player to take the 4 damage or not. For example, you cannot sacrifice a creature until it is already in play. If what you say is true, then it would be impossible to sacrifice the creature. The ability triggers in response to Vexing Devil "entering the battlefield". Then opponents choose to take 4 damage or not. If they don't, it remains in play, if they do, I am forced to then sacrifice Vexing Devil.

Anytime you see "when (,,,) enters the battlefield," you should know it is a triggered ability. And Torpor Orb nullifies all creature related "enters the battlefield" triggered abilities.

Also, don't worry about knocking my deck. What you say is good for discussion.

I alright.

You are right in that -1/-1s remove +1/+1s, but in the case where -1/-1 counters "cause the death" of a creature with undying, two things happen that are both state based effects. Simultaneously, death occurs while -1/-1 counters remove +1/+1 counters. The death triggers Undying, which must check the state of the creature before it died to see if there is a +1/+1 counter on it. Now, when two states exist at a time, abilities that respond to these states must defer to the state of the creature prior to the two conflicting states. Therefore, Undying sees a live creature with a +1/+1 counter, and therefore decides not to return the creature to play.
It's extremely technical and counter-intuitive imo, and I do wish it worked differently, but I check it out myself and in fact KILLING a creature that has a +1/+1 counter and has undying with Black Sun's Zenith does NOT allow that creature to return.

Check here on the rules to see for yourself:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2012/02/undying-creatures-and-black-suns-zenith/

bingo! among other things too.

no prob dude. Pretty cool combos.

thanks Planestalker! Yea, I'm not a big fan of legacy tournaments since most of the games only go 2 or 3 rounds max. I prefer much more flavorful play casually. Glad you appreciate casual play too, even though I think this particular deck is standard tourny worthy, it is pretty fun with just a bunch of friends too.

nice draft deck. Gratz!

happy to help

please stop reposting this deck. thanks

well, what would happen is you would cast undying in response to the Vexing Devil's triggered ability, then the opponents would choose whether to take 4 damage or let it play. Unless your opponent is an idiot, they're going to let it play and your undying evil 'end of turns' out. Likely a waste of an undying unless your intention is to keep your vexing in play.

looks cool, nice man

swiftfoot boots is ok, but it doesn't sync as well with fling. Look at it this way: uncanny speed = extra attack(power+3damage) + (power+3dmg(fling)). Mathematically it is the right choice imo for standard.

excellent analysis of the deck. I appreciate you taking the time for something like this. As for your demonlord question, they do not come into play tapped. It is not like regenerate in any way in that they actually die, then return from the graveyard as normal (summoning sickness and all). With regenerate, the creatures don't enter the graveyard and don't return to play at all. All damage is removed and they become tapped as another effect. Having said that, I agree with you about revisiting Rush of Blood vs. Uncanny speed. I am currently playtesting this, and I will probably reduce the number of Pitt-dwellers to 3 or even 2, and increase the spot removal, since this deck lacks in that department imo.

If I had two slots available, what would you recommend?
I am currently looking at:
--2 Incinerates
--2 more uncanny speeds(4)
--2 rush of bloods
--2 bloodgift demons
--2 faithless looting
--1 more Skirsdag Priest(3) and 1 more Demonlord(3)

If you're using Fling with Uncanny SPeed, yeah it's nice.
I'd be careful about bounce........jus sayin.

actually, fling sac's the creature before bounce can respond since the sac is 'in addition to the casting cost'. Kind of a neat little aspect of fling.

Fling vs any counter, still means you'd sac for a card disadvantage with all those instants.

yes that's true, fling vs. counter is bad news bears. Can't win them all, though I don't necessarily loose out if I fling with Undying.

In MTG, there is never 1 answer to anything.

It would be between the two rush of bloods and the skirsdag Priest and Demonlord. I noticed the mimic vats you've added. Those are a good add. The mimic vats will allow you to better us skirsdag Priest. However pumping out creatures is good if you are going up against a heavy creature deck. If you are going against a control deck then the rush of bloods would be better because control decks will simple take out the skirsdag priest. There are so many control deck out there that one well timed rush of blood with an uncanny speed would end the game. Even with out an uncanny speed with the creatures you have rush of blood will drop'em 8 or 10 life. These new cards are allowing for decks that can do the one turn take should all else fail. I have many standard deck that allow for the one turn take out.

so you're basically saying, and I'll put it in my own example, that let's say I have skirsdag priest and I make a demon, it is better to wait for the turn he can attack, THEN cast Rush of Blood (10 power) then fling for 10 more dmg for 20 (vs. control decks) than cast uncanny speed the turn he comes into play (8power/haste) then fling for 8 more (16 total), even though rush of blood would basically cost me a turn to do (theoretically) but it would likely end the game.

In that case, if I just sideboarded Rush of Blood to use vs. control decks that would solve the issue imo. I prefer the surprise factor of uncanny speed, because likely, by the time I can even do creature+uncanny speed+fling, I'll already have hit them for at least 4 since 4 is the minimum power for all my attacking creatures, in which case 16 is a respectable game ending number. I just have to make sure that the early pressure is enough for at least 1 hit, which is likely since they'll take 4 one way or another from Vexing Devil.

I would add rush of blood instead of uncanny speed because you seem to want to use a rush of blood/uncanny speed and fling combo on the demon that the priest creates. You keep talking about the surprise factor of the demon.

It seems like this would be difficult to pull off. The priests ability to create a demon depends on the death of another creature. Considering when you have torpor orb in play you have no way to sac any creatures (the only creature you would be able to sac would be Vexing Devil anyway) and you have no cheap kill spells ( I don't count tragic slip because most often it will also need the morbid trigger), a creature is unlikely to die before your combat step.

Thus, the surprise factor is lost because you will have to wait until the following turn to attack with the demon anyway so it might as well be with a rush of blood. The one turn take out will likely also be a surprise of its own. By the way, I love this deck and I'm probably going to make something similar-ish to it. I'd ask you to look at a deck of mine, but I've only posted one deck and I misread the card I built it around. Anywho, I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

that would indeed be great, except isochron isn't standard, which is the beauty of this deck.

yes it does, with torpor orb there is no need to sac a creature. So basically 5/4 flying+undying for 4 mana, sweet no?

hehe, I checked it out before you even made front page, nice work dawg ;)

no problem, happy to help! good luck with your black pod deck!

Lingering souls is a better token engine but to keep it 2-colour I just thought of changing the mimic vats to mycosynth wellsprings and add kuldotha rebirth so you get a slight ramp plus 3 tokens. Could even sac the Hex to it if you need more blockers or to get Demonlord out.