Discarded Waste

Mind Shatter was a valiant attempt at recreating Mind Twist, but it's amazing how much that one extra mana makes it less effective.
Waste Not is hands down my favorite card coming out in M15, but my inner Timmy really like Soul of New Phyrexia and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.

Soul of New Phyrexian will be amazing for certain EDH decks. I look forward to it =]

Name a format and I will do my best, it is hands down my favorite card. I also play 8-rack in modern so this card has been all over my radar. (picking up a playset today.)

Sadly it isn't legal today as I have a modern event after work -_- have to wait until next week to get solid testing in.

I haven't put a ton of energy or thought into the card honestly. I'm so busy with work (since it is tourist season in Alaska) that I've had little energy to do much else on my days off. Still, M15 is the first core set I've been excited about since M10. And the first set I've looked forward to since the entire Zendikar block.

http://www.mtgvault.com/viagrasaurusrex/decks/burning-waste/

I feel that's the best modern can do, I am trying to brew a storm deck with waste not haha.
in both legacy and modern.

Legacy Waste combo.

http://www.mtgvault.com/viagrasaurusrex/decks/waste-not-storm/

I don't really want them to have a hand at all. No hand means no spells.

drumhead is right.

http://www.mtgvault.com/magiccontroller/decks/meanest-multi-discard/

My friends discard deck. The best deck I have ever faced.
If he gets Ensnaring Bridge out...kiss your butt goodbye.
I have lost, over 20 times, to that deck. It is just brutal.

Quest for the Nihil Stone makes Liliana's Caress look like a slow grandma. He has, very convincingly, proven that to me.

And if they have a Waste Not card...are they going to make a Want Not card?

Mind Twist is too slow?!?!
That must be why they've banned it in every format except vintage... where it is restricted too btw.
If you have a Mind Twist and at least one Dark Ritual in your first hand, you've just started out fantastic.
Plus the cards are discarded at random.

Mind Twist is brutal, if I had the option to, I would play it in Legacy all the time. By the notion of it being slow, then certainly Doom Blade is slow, and Sinkhole irrelevant.
I want you to think about the nature of the decks that would play Mind Twist, and then reflect on if it's a slow card or not. Certainly at some points it becomes essentially a dead card, same as Thoughtseize, but at others it is the most efficient form of hand disruption behind only Hymn to Tourach and a well used Cabal Therapy.

Break down of Mind Twist:

1) Pay 2 mana for Mind Twist. What you get is: One card discarded. 2 mana for 1 card discarded? That is awful!
Pay 1 Mana: Duress, Thoughtseize, Funeral Charm, Blackmail, Cabal Therapy. Mind Peel. Inquisition of Kozilek. Skull Fracture. 1 mana for 1 card. That isn't awful.

Do you want to pay 2 mana for 1 card discarded or pay 1 mana for 1 card discarded? Speed is key in discard.

2) Pay 3 mana for Mind Twist. What you get is: 2 cards discarded. 3 mana for two cards discarded? Awful, again.
Pay 2 mana: Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy or Duress/Blackmail or Duree/Cabal Therapy. 2 mana for 2 cards. Not awful.
Or Pay 2 mana for: Hymn to Tourach, Chain of Smog, Wrench Mind. 2 mana for 2 cards.

Do you want to pay 3 mana for 2 cards discarded or pay 2 mana for 2 cards discarded? Again, speed kills in discard.

By the time you can pay 4 or mana to Mind Twist, your opponent's hand should be empty anyways. Unless something went wrong.

It is rated 4.6 out of 5. One of the highest in Magic. It brutalized games back in 1995. Banned in Type 1 in 1995 or 1996 because of it's pure power. I do get that.

But go to tappedout, or Gatherer. You will see the same arguments. Plain and simple: 1 mana for 1 card discarded is better than 2 mana for 1 card discarded. 2 mana for 2 cards discarded is better than 3mana for 2 cards discarded.

Mind Twist makes you pay 1 mana before it even does anything. So, unless you have a miracle hand with 2 or 3 Dark Rituals...it is slower. More powerful and less cards used, but still slower.

Not knocking your deck though, i was one of the people that liked it.

JensDragon, will you go check out this deck for me, it has beaten me over 20 times. 3 times in a row today.

http://www.mtgvault.com/magiccontroller/decks/meanest-multi-discard/

When you get beat by this guy, who says he would never run Mind Twist in his deck (even if you gave him a playset of Mind Twist) , 20 times...you start to think about Mind Twist. lol. He throws down, and with dark ritual, has a fully charged Nihil Stone on Turn 1. Throws down an Ensnaring Bridge on Turn 3. Turn 4 I can't attack and am losing 5 life a turn to Nihil Stone.

I bought 4 Mind Twist for 20 bucks...tested them in my red/black Caress for weeks. Now they are sitting in my binder of expensive cards. Collecting dust. I guess I just couldn't find a way to beat his discard deck with my discard deck. When he is pay 2 mana to make me discard 2 cards...and i am paying 3 mana to make him discard 2 cards...he is beating me to the punch, and charging his Nihil Stone at the same time.

"Mind Twist and Channel
When these cards were first banned in 1995, Magic: the Gathering was a different game than it is now. In spite of the many cards that have been restricted, the speed of Type 1 has steadily increased over the years. This increase in speed is the result of the thousands of cards that have been added to Type 1 since Channel and Mind Twist were banned. In fact, Type 1 is fast enough now that these cards, while still powerful, no longer unbalance the game as they once did."
That is from Wizards. DCI Banned list. Haters gonna hate, as Northy says.

Mind Twist was god, around Revised. But Moxes, Sol Ring, Black Lotus were also legal too. Yes, Mind Twist was the 2nd card banned. Yes, it shows how god like it is that it would be banned before Lotus. Again, I get that. I am just saying there are two differently groups of people with Mind Twist. 1. Those that think it is god like. 2. Those that that think it absolutely amazing, but not as god like as it was in 1995.

Back in 2007, WotC decided to make Mind Twist completely unbanned and unrestricted in Vintage. In the 6 years that Mind Twist was completely legal in Vintage, decks with Mind Twist had only made top 8 tournament appearances a total of 6 times.

Pay two mana to discard is bad. Two mana to discard a card at random... good (borderline great).
Channel was ousted more for the fact that with Fireball it was a nasty combo and not to use with Mind Twist. Ill Gotten gains is by far nothing in comparison considering they get cards back and like you agreed with me already... I don't want them to have a hand.
And talk about slow... IGG is 5 mana...

Iggy is 4 mana, and totally different from targeted discard spells like Hymn, Cabal Therapy, and the like. It's more of a bomb/combo piece than anything. Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges...

Ah, right. I should have more thoroughly. Been forever since I've even glanced at my playset of it. Fair enough.

... Oh yes, very yes!

I had a 4 player game where I dropped an Iggy with Waste Not on the board. Everyone had full(ish) hands. It was silly.

Is Mind Slash viable with Waste Not? Some sort of gravecrawler/Bloodghast/myr servitor deal? Or Carnival of Souls mana generator>? Been trying to come up with something. This guy did some pretty decent justice with Waste Not. At first, it almost seems easier to break then it really is.

Don't mention Iggy, or you will get downvoted with me, lol.

@Jessie; Mind Slash is viable, but you'd have to have the early ramp to do that. Call me biased, which I entirely am, but I think a form of mana denial Pox would suit that idea quite nicely. A more traditional approach to WinterVoid Pox as Quasimofo uses would do quite nicely I think.
Zombardment, while a quick thought, is too focused on it's primary agenda for this to work, though Carnival is an interesting option for support. I think I'd rather see one to three copies of Waste Not finding a home in some variations of Grixis Tempo.

Also, I quite enjoyed reading your responses on the subject of Mind Twist. Though the things that the research neglects is the lack of people playing the decks that /should/ have Mind Twist, and the drastic toll it takes on most players mental state. Especially given the gamestate of Vintage, where that much mana means the only reason one does this is to assure victory on /their timetable/.
(As a small addendum to this address, I will be checking out that deck. Multiplayer MBC is a love of mine, and while hand disruption isn't my particular style, it is quite enjoyable when built well.)


@Sure; I for some reason can't help but imagine any member of your group I've talked to but Wumpus pulling that move.

The deck in question, is brutal. He self discards himself with Bottomless Pit and Delirium Skeins, then throws down an Ensnaring Bridge, and hides as his Guiltfeeder and Nihil Stone goes to town. I freaking hate that deck! Can't tell you the number of times i have lost against it..sometimes 4 and 5 losses in a row.

It was that deck that made me feel iffy about Mind Twist. I was seeing the speed he was going...and thought, Mind Twist isn't even viable in his deck. It is too slow. It blew me away. Mind Twist not being the best fit for a discard deck. It opened my eyes.

It was also the deck that made me take back my love for Caress. I began to see the power of Nihil Stone. If you are down to 1 card, , and the Nihil stone is charged, you have this option. 1) Play it and take 5 damage next upkeep. 2) Don't play it and he will make you discard it anyways with a discard card. IT sucks.
That is way better than Caress. With Caress, of course, you are going to want to play every card, and topdeck. Not with Nihil Stone. It makes you question every card you play/hold in your hand. Stressful. Do I play the card and take 5 damage next upkeep, do i keep it in my hand and hope he doesn't have a discard spell? If he does have a discard spell, is it better to play my card now and take the 5 damage. It makes you a mess!

http://www.mtgvault.com/magiccontroller/decks/meanest-multi-discard/
It deserves more love. Only Blackfire Phoenix bragged on it.

JensDagon, the fact that you mentioned Cabal Therapy and Hymn to Tourach, over Thoughtseize, shows that you have done your studies, too. :) Awesome back and forth, here. :)

A slow brutal control like that is amongst my favorite things, I just find mana denial to be the most effective manner of breaking down my opponents plan. Hand disruption is generally too unwieldy for multiplayer in my opinion, the casting constraints on the spells that are effective when dealing with multiple opponents usually entail significant costs. Nihil Stone is a really solid option for it, but Guiltfeeder is one of those crazy(yet awesome) things that could only really happen in multiplayer. I haven't seen it yet, but I already love it lol.

And the reason for that is that it's not effective for multiplayer. It's optimal point as at B+3 as most see it, and the use of four mana for a spell only targeting one person is unjustifiable when there are so many other bombs that become more efficient for multiplayer.

Nihil Stone is based on the use of an entirely different version of discard really, it would be more readily comparable to the Rack, or as an opposite version of Black Vise. The use of Nihil Stone is too different for me to really be willing to compare it to Liliana's Caress.

Blackfire is awesome, so if he likes it I'm sure to enjoy it too usually.

And as for your final point; I really hope somebody wouldn't say Thoughtseize, it's one of the most effective cards, but the efficiency is quite nominal. Though maybe I've just spent too much time playing Pox. I'm quite glad we're getting to have this dialog, it's been a while since the Vault has had such a player take the stage.

And to pat your back, you are very knowledgeable. Since getting back into Magic, last year...for the first time in 10+ years...and only having ever played casual...stuff like Grixis Tempo, Zombardment, WinterVoid Mox, are all new to me.

Holy crap... Wheel of Fortune and Waste Not. That'd be hilarious.

Raven's crime is an allstar in discard decks. in mono black you can also run dakmor salvage in tandem(2of) with it so you can soft lock them.

With all the discard and uneven board presence, a Pox would hurt him more than the opponent. Smallpox is a fixed amount of stuff, so it always does what you want.

Pox Fits a very steamlined deck, this is not it, To play Pox properly, you either want creatures that have death triggers or come back from the grave, or no creatures at all.

SWN hit the nail on the head.

Never give up on Discard. It's so much fun.

Extirpate is in the sideboard and usually proves more useful since it cannot be countered.

The card drawing power of Waste Not helps find the things I need and coupled with the tutors its easy to get what is needed. Plus the zombies created by it and then you have the rack, specters, mutavaults, nyxathid, caress and other things to kill your opponent. Granted it id a standered discard deck with waste not added in, but honestly why would you not toss that card in?

I'd toss that card in. But I would also make sure to take something else out and to not overdo the discard aspect. As I said, once the opponent's hand is empty, Waste Not is one of the cards that becaomes dead! You will NOT draw any cards off of it anymore. And, like Caress, you need to have it in play before you discard hits. Which means it will be active turn 3. You are playing Legacy/Vintage. Even if casual Legacy/Vintage, most opponents will be able to drop their hand and play every card they draw right away on turn 4 and after. Play this against a standard (I mean regular, common, not the format) burn deck, weenie deck, fish or whatever is commonly played in this format and you'll see what I mean.

And when I said it's just a standard discard deck with Waste Not thrown in ... well that was a stab at the MTGVault community in general. Dozens and dozens of decks that we've all seen before dozens of times with small alterations that are just "thrown in". Without any thought, creativity or love. If Waste Not is the new hot addition to a very old concept that has already been beaten to death, why don't you go that extra length and tweak your deck around that new card? As I said, in a deck like this, and in this format, I would at the very least expect to see Anvil of Boagrdan - it guarantees continous discards without giving your opponent any extra cards. It's also very cheap and helps you to find the right cards. Something like that!

And please note that I am not here to mock you. I am on a mission to foster creativity and fight stagnation that plagues this place and Magic in general.