Oh The Horror

I know that just removing them doesn't transform it, that's why you follow up with a spell so that it can transform

My bad, your completely right! For some reason I was thinking it took four counters being on it to transform it. I like your deck even more now. Good job dude.

I will admit, I didn't come up with the idea and was initially sceptical about it transforming this way, but after checking up on a few rules, and reading Thing in the Ice carefully, I found that it does work :D

Also, I got Thing in the Ice as my dated foil at the Prerelease :DDDDD

My take on GRIXIS Thing... http://www.mtgvault.com/sadlk/decks/grixis-thing-2/

But then I can't have more than one either. Singularly is still a good combo with it though.

Heh!
I always get that respond as well :D

You can play around the leyline, and get to decide if you want to play it during your opening hand.
Some even cut down a lot of their deck to support the idea, but play other hunted cards as well.

By the way, how is your take on thing in the ice?
(have you played any games with it?)

I've flirted with the thought of adding it to the "cards to test" list on my grixis project, but want some solid oppinions before I test it.

I've not had a chance to play with Thing yet. Still trying to collect a set. There appears to only be 3 copies (mine included) in my club at the moment.

Delver supplies damage early game while Thing is still in the Ice (you can't combo every game). Also, at one mana, it's cheap to play after Thing bounces it.

I see the point of it being there, personally I would rather have had counterspells, since sometimes you need them to save your creatures from removal and such. If you are deadset on having the delvers, wouldn't cutting the probes and reducing the combopotential in favour for more defence in form of counterspells be the better course of action?

Depends on how you want to play. I'm more of a green mage, with blue being a week point, so I tend to forgo counters in favour of being a but more aggressive. Remember, besides Delver being an awesome 3 power flier for cheap, Vampire Hexmage is also a 2/1 with first strike that I don't have to sacrifice. (though sacrificing the Vampire to kill a walker is fun).

I can see a more tempo build being more consistent, with shuffling some of the numbers around to include counters, etc.

True, I am in the other end with green being the colour I use the least and only splash when I need some effects or if I want a change of pace. I mostly play control, but combo and tempo are also deck types I enjoy playing. I did include Vampire Hexmage's offensive capabilities when I first thought about the deck, since I am quite a huge fan of the card.

Have you considered running Echoing Truth over Ratchet Bomb? Since the primary idea of the card will be nuking tokens, Echoing Truth can do the same and is more synergistic with Delver of Secrets.

Bomb does have one thing up on Echoing, it hits all tokens regardless of name. The original build had Rapid Hybridization and Pongify as the kill spells, and they leave behind tokens of different names, so Bomb was better than Echoing. As it stands, I'm at a toss-up between Echoing Truth and Bile Blight. Blight can't target Hunted Horror's tokens, but it does double up as a kill spell on almost everything else.

I would argue for Echoing truth because it bounces any non-land permanent, which means that against prison decks and such, you can use it to get past their defences. It doesn't kill stuff, but it does have the added benefit of being able to save your horrors in response to removal. Personally I think it is more versatile.

Hunted Phantasm isn't a Horror, so TITI will bounce it, which is not really good if I get TITI after I'm forced to play it. Even with all the draw, I know I won't see the creatures in an ideal order every game, and I'd rather not run that risk yet. I am looking at working in Illness in the Ranks, at least in sideboard, which completely breaks Hunted Phantasm 's 'balance'.

true but delver gets bounced as well whether it is flipped or not. Just feel like when you're running ratchet bomb or ESPECIALLY illness in the ranks if you decide to go that route, you'll get more value from hunted phantasm as it can be a winner by itself then just sitting on a 1/1 that you hope flips. Hunted phantasm even if you don't flip TITI it can win alone unless removed of course. Delver I don't think contributes enough or at least as much as it could with the way the deck is built. Plus you have enough removal to where an early gamer like delver isn't necessary I don't think. You have plenty of answers to early game.

When I get around to editing this (been lazy), I'll definitely work in the disruption. I'm liking the Echoing Truth idea suggested by Chiligyro. There'll probably be a mix of discard, counter, kill, and protection.

I also noticed the sideboard needs some work. I'd suggest all the usual - enchantment hate, artifact hate, graveyard hate. Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb, Spellskite, Hurkyl's Recall, maybe Tectonic Edge.

Sideboard just shows cards I was considering.

711.12. When a double-faced permanent transforms, it doesn’t become a new object. Any effects that applied to that permanent will continue to apply to it after it transforms.

Example: An effect gives Village Ironsmith (the front face of a double-faced card) +2/+2 until end of turn and then Village Ironsmith transforms into Ironfang. Ironfang will continue to get +2/+2 until end of turn.

----------------------------------------------------------------

So Trickery Charm, which overrides creature types, turning TITI human will cause it's own ability to bounce it back to your hand (in addition to every other non-horror).

Now if you where to make it human with Wings of Velis Vel, giving it all creature types, then transform it with Moonmist, it'll be a 4/4 flying creature that is all creature types, including Horror. It's transforming trigger will return all non-horrors like normal, but it'll be a 4/4 and have flying thanks to Wings of Velis Vel. It'll also have Ice counters on it, though they'll be meaningless.

This trick can also be pulled off with Shields of Velis Vel; Mirror Entity; and Amoeboid Changeling.

Awesome, thanks for info. Man, would be cool with 1drop trickery charm. But still would be a nice combo with WoVV.

Awesome, thanks for info. Man, would be cool with 1drop trickery charm. But still would be a nice combo with WoVV.

Shields of Velis Vel allows you to do it for one mana, and it saves all your creatures from the bounce effect. White will be needed for this though, but that opens up access to White removal, like Path to Exile

Clock Spinning can remove two counters, all for only one {U}. One for being an instant cast, and one for its effect.
With both Fate Transfer and Clock Spinning (if the last counter was removed), you still have to follow up with another instant or sorcery to transform TITI.

Thanks. If you read the comments, there's definitely room for improvement.

well sure, there is almost always room for improvement, particularly when building around new cards.

Swipe is interesting, but the deathtouch part isn't going to help much (though rebound is an interesting option to cracking the Ice). I like Remand, I'll consider it for an update.

Consider this:

turn 1 Watery Grave
turn 2 Swamp Thing in the Ice
turn 3 Island Vampire Hexmage
Cast Virulent Swipe targeting Thing in the Ice, crack Hexmage in response to remove all counters from it, attack with a 9/8 deathtouch with no blockers, 9 damage so far
turn 4 attack with another 9/8 deathtouch, 18 damage so far
turn 5 find a way to do 2 more damage

--

I'd also suggest using less Hunted Horror as 4 of them will give your opponent too many Centaurs. I'd go down to 2 and then find a way to fit 4 Vapor Snag in. Using Vapor Snag, if you bounce the Centaur tokens that are made by the Hunted Horror then it will kill the token and also do 1 damage to your opponent as well as count towards Thing in the Ice.

Also, Virulent Swipe is a great combat trick for blocking with a 4/2 first strike deathtouch Hexmage and then cracking it next turn and getting rebound to attack with a fresh 9/8 deathtouch.

Thanks. I actually see TITI as a sort of "Fixed" Dark Depths. That's how I decided to look up the rulings on using Vampire Hexmage to help transform TITI. That, plus I've been wanting to use my set of Hunted Horror for a while and thought this would be a good opportunity. Still trying to acquire more TITI though (only got my Prerelease promo at the moment)

indeed, Thing in the ice is certainly a fixed dark depths, which is funny to me because Dark Depths is a TERRIBLE card without vampire hexmage.

Yeah Thing in the Ice is way better than Dark Depths, and a lot more fun it seems, too. Can't blame you for wanting to use those Haunted Horrors. They make for a sweet combo with Thing!

It's a 2/1 that has Protection from the one colour that almost never targets the opponent's creatures (apart from 'fight' effects). There's no real room for it, not even in sideboard.

pretty sure that torpor orb doesn't interact with Titi, as the counters are not an enter the battlefield trigger.

TITI's Ice counters are an etb effect, so the orb would effect it. Good call.

TITI ; Hunted Horror ; and Canker Abomination. Three Horrors that come to mind when considering Torpor Orb's effect. Tribal Horrors?

so, I am being told that titi is not an etb triggered ability, but a replacement effect, so torpor orb doesn't interact with it.

TITI reads: "Thing in the Ice ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD with four ice counters on it."

Torpor Orb reads: "Creatures ENTERING THE BATTLEFIELD don't cause abilities to trigger."
Ruling on Torpor Orb: "2011/06/01 Torpor Orb stops a creature’s own ENTERS-THE-BATTLEFIELD triggered abilities as well as other triggered abilities that would trigger when a creature enters the battlefield."

I even checked Gather to be 100% sure.

While this is true, and Titi says it enters with the counters... Etb effects are worded differently (etb effects start with When, Whenever, or As). Short explanation is that Titi doesn't cause stuff to happen by entering the battlefield, it is simply stating that it comes with counters. The counters don't get put on BECAUSE it entered the battlefield, thus having no interaction with torpor orb or hushwing gryff.

Example would be wickerbough elder, it says that it enters the battlefield with a counter just like Titi, in contrast hookmaster says when kor hookmaster enters the battlefield tap target creature.

Kor hookmaster is affected by torpor orb, but Wickerbough elder is not.

Ohhhh... I looked it up to see if you were right and well you were. Thing in the Ice entering the battlefield isn't triggering an ability to put the counters on, so torpor orb will not cause its counters to go away... sadly :(
Thanks for pointing that out tho Kazzong, probably would have gone making a deck like that and messing up a ton.

My apologies, you are correct. In trying to find another rule to prove myself correct (who doesn't want to be right all the time?), I found this:

2011/06/01 Abilities that create replacement effects, such as a permanent entering the battlefield tapped or with counters on it, are unaffected.

I guess this boils down to "What exactly is a replacement effect?" In the Comprehensive Rules, rule number 614 covers Replacement Effects. Rule 614.1c specially effects Torpor Orb:

614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ” are replacement effects.

No worries. :)

after going to gatherer to check any rulings there and finding none, I ended up going to a facebook group that is specifically for rules questions, I posed the question to them, and they cited that section (614.1c) of the rule book. I wanted to copy and paste it here but couldn't as I have been posting from a phone.

I posted from a phone too (and am right now). I copy-pasted from http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Comprehensive_rules .

yes it does.

yes is very good combo!! i reomend, also splash white i recomend for hyshwing gryff is very good syngery combo with ohremendal