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I'm trying to find a balance between discard, extraction and board clearing. Here's one attempt. *EDIT* (05 Nov 2011) Made ALOT of changes thanks to comments and suggestions, hope this is better than it was :p *EDIT* (08 Nov 2011) -4 Praetor's Grasp +4 Sadistic Sacrament I added Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to help kick Sadistic Sacrament and only now realized that Sadistic wasn't in the deck. I didn't know what to take out to add it in (I like the grasp).
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How you win the game????? I don't see a point on this deck........
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I "mill" the opponent to death. The extraction lessens the number of cards in the opponent's library. The discards sets up the opponent to be extracted with Surgical Extraction and Extirpate. The discard also slows down what gets played. The global destruction gets rid of creatures that do manage to come out, setting them up to be extracted. Elixir both replenishes the library and counteracts the lifeloss from drawing extra cards (Phyrexian Arena)
If your strategy is to mill, you should probably try to add "Cabal Coffers" to your build, so you can use "Sadistic Sacrament" with the kicker more efficiently. :)
Good idea, adding 2 now :p
I highly recommend running at least 22 lands, especially if you want to run Coffers. I think 3x Coffers, 2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and 17 Swamps is a good place to start. Urborg is absolutely essential though, to turn those Coffers into swamps themselves. Elixir of Immortality is a very weak card outside of limited and perhaps a few specific builds. That'd be a good place to start for your +2 lands if you agree with my above comment. You have Thoughtseize and Duress, which is considered two of best discard spells; Psychic Miasma, however, is very unimpressive. If you can get a hold of them (and I highly recommend you do) Hymn to Tourach is /the/ discard spell. It's so good it's not funny :) Finally, you really don't have much of a win-con built into this deck. You have very solid disruption (even better with Hymn ;D), however that does you little good if you don't take advantage of that to boost your own tempo, and you currently have no tempo. If you look at any other successful extraction deck, they all boil down to beating face at some point, and if they were successful, it's a very one-sided face beating :P Otherwise, looks like a solid start. Think it could be brutal with a few tweaks :) Cheers!
Thanks Cabbage. I always appreciate your advice :) I'll look into making some of the changes you suggested, but not now (I'm a little busy). The cards in here are what I came up with at work, so I wasn't concentrating properly :p
It has been said by the sagely cabbage, and I must agree. On all of my black based decks I start with the same simple, yet brutally effective core. 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn to Tourach 4 Sinkhole 4 Dark Ritual 4 Bob
I'm going to sound stupid here, but Bob??
Sorry, it's a common pet name for Dark Confidant that I've just gotten overly used to calling him. >_< I'll admit it makes less sense than calling Emrakul the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Lol. I just call him Tentacruel. And this is why: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/315/a/e/emrakul_by_flappyb-d32n4ca.jpg
I'm really starting to consider shifting my priorities away from other cards wanted to complete WnB's list there. Minus Dark Ritual, I have a billion of those and rarely play them. Even though they facilitate two very potent opening hands: Swamp -> Ritual -> Thoughtseize & Hymn or Swamp -> Ritual -> Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy & Creature -> flashback Therapy They set you up for top-deck mode right out of the gate, or threaten you with a late game dead draw.. so I've pretty much stopped using them. The new Liliana might make me reconsider that though (to fuel her +1)
I still use them in mono black because I base everything off of Nether Void, but as I'm mainly a blue player I can totally agree with not running them. And that blew my mind Ded, to smithereens.
I must agree that the rituals have often come up as dead cards. On the other hand they have also been the cause of wins as they spead up my deck by a turn. Thus I give them a try in all my nonstandard/extended mono black decks.
the name Bob is from Bob Maher (I think that was it), who won that tournament that let him design a card. some unfairly good cards have come from that. (e.g. snapcaster, confidant, simulacrum)
I think it's because Dark Confidant looks a lot like a young Bob Dole...
I highly recommend using at LEAST Praetor's Grasp. It's now one of my favorite Extraction cards. However, I've found adding in Bloodghast and Undiscovered Paradise to the mix creates a whole new level of versatility to Grasp. It's one of those lovely multi-directional synergy scenarios that makes you smile =]
I actually have a set of Praetor's Grasp in my excuse for a standard deck (Kill It), but I'm sure I can bounce the cards between decks. I already bounce my Dismembers between decks :p Love the 'combo' with Bloodghast and Undiscovered Paradise, now just to see if I can find the land (and one more Bloodghast)
Like'd. Do you think it'll be equally effective against creature-based decks? It always makes me nervous playing decks with no physical defense. But that's just me. :]
This deck is actually going to be overhauled completely this weekend. I'm going to try add some stuff that Cabbage, WnB and SWN suggested and this'll include adding creatures.
I suggest you look into Doomsday Storm if you feel that way about not having creatures leelamarre, it might rock your world. And thanks for the help with the banner Ded, I'm waiting for my gaming group to see it XD
No problem :p I'd like to see this banner though, you using it in your sig on the forums? A question about Hymn to Tourach, any particular reason for that specific discard spell? I've seen a few similar ones (though most at higher casting cost).
Yup :D I've dashied out my forum profile. And the reason for Hymn to Tourach is that it has the most powerful discard effect you can get for that mana, it's simply one of my favourite cards for it, and enrages people when you keep drawing them XD
Why try to deck him out? Why not use a finisher ala Tombstalker?
Believe it or not, I have a higher win rating against Reanimator and Storm when I use my current Poxtraction frame than mono-black control, BUG Landstill, Dredge, or even le dreaded fish.
Have you thought about using Painful Quandry as a secondary win con? I have an extraction deck and it has won me many games
You're on the front page now, you better get your ass in gear and make those changes ;P
Changes made, hope it's better now
Clearly if you want to just "extract" them to death, you need haunting echoes. Easily. That card clears a library faster than any black card.
Not sure if trolling, or standard player. http://www.myfacewhen.com/131/
trolling? Shut up guy. You clearly don't know what haunting echoes does either. Not every deck has to be standard ready. Most people just play for fun you dunce. And with all those discard cards, haunting echoes would make this deck.
I'm pretty sure WnB knows what Haunting Echoes does. What he is referring to, I suspect, is your assertion that it clears a library faster than any black card. You clearly have never heard of Poxtraction -- Bitter Ordeal clears libraries far more effectively than Echoes does. And technically, since you didn't declare who's library is being removed, Doomsday clears a library faster than any black card ;) Still, Haunting Echoes would be a good card to run if Ded weren't already running Extirpate and Surgical Extraction. Those two cards should keep graveyards fairly thin, giving Echoes few cards worth grabbing for its casting cost.
Bitter Ordeal seems nice, but you'd have to use it in a pretty good combo or it's going to be wasted I believe. Nice card though. And doomsday? Why the hell would anyone want that? It seems useless to me unless you were running suicide decks, and those are boring in my opinion.
I do know what Haunting Echoes does, and I will admit that it's one of the fastest ways to clear an opponents library. It's just a lot of people troll with the card because it's so expensive to cast. The standard player thing was because a lot of new standard players had been suggesting it during it's passage through format, in decks where it was sub-optimal. I didn't mean to offend you or anything, it was a legitimate thought. Your response is rather uncivil I would like to mention, and I request that you refrain from insulting random strangers; it gives the site a bad rep.
Haunting Echoes is a terrible Extraction card. Plain and simple. It's only seen in Millstraction, which is such a "lesser" form of Extraction that it is largely just considered "mill with tricks", or it was seen in Standard periodically, simply because of Standard's suffocating card-base =/ You shouldn't be insulted by being called a Standard player...it is obvious that you are, but that doesn't mean you are a bad player by any means, it just means you are less informed about cards such as Bitter Ordeal. If you are wondering, http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=208040 <--- That, is how it is better. Entire decks are designed around Doomsday, just so you know =]
I'm not quite sure, but I think Stephen Menendian played Doomsday again this season as an example. That man is the godfather of competitive Vintage, his decks are simply amazing.
hey swn and ded, how do i get a profile picture? the only thing in account options is to change my password
There used to be a thread in the forums, where you could submit a picture and Gary would manually add it. Dunno if its still there or not, though.
It's still there, but I highly doubt he's still doing it. They said that instead of wasting the time getting flooded with requests (which they really were), they would spend that time making improvements to the site...including a future option to upload a pic. Still, I don't think it's on the top priority list...mostly because almost nobody is asking for it
looks nice, check out my standard one Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=255240 It's esper lockdown
real nice, makes me wanna repost Deck Eater
I made a deck like this way beack when. If your interested. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=96173
This deck is evil. +1
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