Standard Minotaurs

Also, Dragonskull Summit is rotating and will not be standard next week.

dreadbore is NOT better. it is only cheaper. and sacrifices speed. its so much better to pay 3 on their turn than 2 on yours.
similar story with Doom Blade. the format is going to have a ton of powerful black card (desecration Demon, Shadowborn Demon, xathrid necromancer, Obzedat, ect) and doomblace misses ALL of those. for one mana more, you get a MUCH more versatile kill spell. and it does hit PW.

moral of the story: Hero's Downfall > Doom Blade > Dreadbore

You're going to hit double black very rarely (assuming the mana base is fixed.) and for an Aggro deck that wants to tap out every turn, playing dreadbore on your turn isn't that bad. The worse thing you can do is not tap out to leave mana open and miss a creature drop.

And black is definitely not the best color in the new standard--black got no upgrades from Theros except abhorrent overlord (which is a problem for a whole different reason) and even desecration demon only saw fringe tournament play. The big problem creatures will continue to be loxodon smiter, boros reckoner, Stormbreath dragon, aetherling, etc.

And if it's such a problem, sideboard the black hate spell.

WOW. Desecration Demon will be the best creature in standard control post rotation. HANDS DOWN.
Sorcery Speed Removal is bad. none of the creatures you listed are better than DD. MAYBE Aetherling, but by the time they play him, theyre forced to sac him to DD to stay alive.

WHY would he waste space in the sideboard for something he already prepared for in the main board. if anything, DOOM BLADE belongs in the sideboard.

Black got NO upgrades? lol. Thoughtseize, Whip of Erebos, Agent of Fates, Read the Bones, EREBOS, Gery Merchant, Hero's Downfall, Vipers Kiss.....Yeah, Black sucks.

its sad, usually I agree with you, but in this case, I think you are WAY off the mark, and giving this kid terrible advice.

i agree ninjastyle612. black got plenty of good upgrades from theros. I ran a W/B theros deck at a local prerelease and almost everyone there was running some sort of black spell. the most prominent black card was (hilariously) [Read the Bones]. you would here people call it about every 3-5 seconds. black is always good, but saying there were no upgrades makes me want to come over and slap people around with my current black theros deck

thats because read the bones is one of the best black upgrades, ant the best replacement to Think Twice that came about. the ability to Scry 2, THEN draw is incredible. it allows you to potentially search for the card you need through 4 cards, instead of drawing first and then waiting a turn to get what you need.

B/W control will be a player in new standard. Mark it.

oh i am well aware of that. i ran 2 [Triad of the Fates] and epically owned every time i had it out. theros W/B plus Orzohv will be broke as hell

Broke, no, but a deck with Blood Baron, Obzedat, Desecration Demon, and Agent of Fates is going to be tough for anyone to deal with.

true that. im going to get back to my new deck im working on (which is coincidentally focused on minotaurs). give it a look when i finish it in about an hour or so :)

PS its a standard minotaur burn deck

sure thing.

all done. just made it public

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/fury-of-mogis/

I only just saw this conversation, and I have to agree with Ninja and drake. Jace doesn't have a clue what he's on about and Black got TONS of good solid cards in the Theros release. He's kidding himself otherwise. Solid deck btw drakeraenes

Did anyone here forget about Whip of Erebos at the moment? IDK I'd just thought I'd bring that up since Obzedat and Whip is so broken.

No it's not, the Whip's effect would happen first and Obzedat would never come back. As per the instructions on the card.

Also guys I wouldn't mind your thoughts on a new Junk Rites deck I am putting together. Any new ideas or cards I missed or even sideboarding options would be appreciated.

http://www.mtgvault.com/bennyboy777/decks/junk-rites-for-theros/

Thanks

thanks benny_boy777. i dont get much feedback so i appreciate any that i do get :)

however the whip does open up a whole new option for some strategies. looking at JUST theros, you could theoretically use a returned centaur to mill 8 cards from an opponent. if you had 4 then there is 32 total cards. now look at if you added in rescue from the underworld. use that on a returned centaur to get back a dead returned centaur and you add another 8 to the cycle. add in 4 of those and you now have over 60 mill from just those 3 cards. now i know that that combo is very unlikely to actually work every time because of mana costs, but its a good look at how effective black is this time around. and thats just on its own!! splash in a bit of blue and its even more broke than it would be beforehand!!!

also, i now feel obliged to make a deck focusing on the whip of erebos

actually, BEnny, since both Obzedat and Whip have an "at the beginning of your end step" ability, you get to choose the stack order. if you stack Whip, then Obzedat, Obzedats ability exiles the creature, and then the whip checks for a creature to exile (for its "if that creature would LTB ability" and finds that Obzedat has already satisfied the Exile requirement. then it tries to exile it again, and has the same result. Obzedat returns at the beginning of your next upkeep.

I don't know, the way the whip is worded it doesn't matter how it leaves the battlefield once it's gone it's gone. But we have plenty of time to find out nonetheless.

Wow lol I'm not going to take the time to read all this lol. I'm not trying to argue, and I admit that Desecration Demon is a great creature, but it's basically the only black creature that's a threat. I don't think it's worth going with a worse option (like Heroes Downfall or Dreadbore) to deal with one creature. That's like sacrificing all other matchups to kill a single creature. I could be predicting the metagame wrong, but I think there are bigger creatures to worry about.

And here's how I would sculpt the mana base, so there's no confusion:

4x Blood Crypt
2x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Swamp
17x Mountain

It's important to note that everytime you play a land that doesn't tap for Red, Boros Reckoner comes down a turn later. Arguments could be made for replacing the swamp with a godless shrine for that reason.

In the given scenario (which maximizes the casting effectiveness of the minotaurs, and can easily provide the one black mana needed for Kragma on turn 5), getting double black is fairly difficult, especially by Turn 3. Also, turn 3 is when the deck wants to curve into its threats like Rageblood Shaman, Boros Reckoner, and Minotaur Skullcleaver. Leaving 3 mana open to cast an instant speed removal (that might blank or be countered) on the first turn that the deck can cast its threats sounds like bad curve crafting. However, with very few early drop creatures, it seems like the best plan in the deck is to have 2 mana removal of some sort, either dreadbore or doom blade. The argument for Dreadbore is just in the planeswalker removal--and the only planeswalker I can see giving this deck a lot of trouble would be a turn 2 or 3 Domri, since decks like that can flood the board with threats ridiculously fast. All other planeswalkers can just be burned out or trampled to death.

I'm not claiming to be right (since there's arguably no "right" answer in any deck, and it's all metagame dependent, and this metagame doesn't even exist yet), but these are my opinions.

Oh, and in response to the no black upgrades, I was referring to creatures. Theros provided black with no bombshell creatures that demand removal, except maybe Erebos, who doesn't die to typical removal anyway. I admit whole heartedly that Thoughtseize is nuts and Whip of Erebos is going to be a lot of fun.

I just edcuated you. If a Level one Judges word isnt enough, check this link. its the Theros FAQ.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/faq/ths
Whip is toward the bottom, and clarifies this.

the whips "If a creature returned to the battlefield with Whip of Erebos would leave the battlefield for any reason, it’s exiled instead." ability creates a replacement effect.

614.14. An object may have one ability printed on it that generates a replacement effect which causes
one or more cards to be exiled, and another ability that refers either to “the exiled cards” or to cards
“exiled with [this object].” These abilities are linked: the second refers only to cards in the exile
zone that were put there as a direct result of the replacement event caused by the first. If another
object gains a pair of linked abilities, the abilities will be similarly linked on that object. They can’t
be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or
may have had in the past. See rule 607, “Linked Abilities.”

607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile
one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to “the exiled cards” or to cards
“exiled with [this object],” these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in
the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.

Also, since the whip's text says "anywhere else", it means anywhere other than exile. So the whip has no replacement effect if Obzedat exiles himself.

Now, if something would happen where you dont make it to your end step with that Obzedat, lets say he gets hit with a Hero's Downfall in the main phase, THEN he does not return, because he doesnt Exile himself, and therefore cannot finish his own ability.

JaceTheMindsculptor239 posts
Also, since the whip's text says "anywhere else", it means anywhere other than exile. So the whip has no replacement effect if Obzedat exiles himself.

I will assume that this is you agreeing with me, and wording it poorly.

also< I read your wall of text up until you insisted on calling Heros Downfall a worse card then Doom Blade, and then your credibility was gone. INSTANT SPEED planeswalker removal or creature kill with no restriction. People are CURRENTLY running MURDER instead of doom blade, because its more versatile.

But nobody is running murder in "Mono-Red" (with 2 black creatures)

Not calling it worse, just not the right fit. Voice of Resurgence is a great card, but I wouldn't recommend he puts that in here either.

this is a rakdos colored deck. he had 11 swamps. thats plenty for running the BETTER Heros Downfall. there is no argument that one black mana can be more difficult to get to, but theres also no argument that Heros Downfall >>>Doomblade.

I agree. Heroes downfall is a great card, and it's going to see a lot of play. To sum it up, here's why I think it shouldn't be in this deck:

1. Two black mana is hard to get to
2. Turn three is already super heavy on this curve
3. It's almost always better to cast removal on turn 2 and curve into a Minotaur on turn 3 (IN THIS DECK, WITH THIS CURVE)
4. The creature removal range isn't vastly more advantageous than Doom Blade
5. The ability to kill planeswalkers isn't vastly advantageous either for a deck that already has multiple ways to deal with them.

These have been my reasons all along. I have never meant to diss the card--it's a great card and will see plenty of play. But there are always options, and sometimes the "best card" isn't what's best for the deck.

Ok Ninja fair point, makes sense now, I can admit when I'm wrong when the facts present themselves, I think I was reading too much into the card. In that case yes I agree, lots of shenanigans with Obzedat to be had. Mind you what I find funny is you spelt educate wrong, which when you think about it is kinda ironic in a funny way :P haha.

so what are you killing on turn 2 with Doom Blade? no one has said anything about killing something turn 3, but it allows you the option to KILL ANYTHING, at instant speed, whenever you need to. the ONLY way its bad it against haste, and even then , you untap and kill. or hold open to kill on their turn. youre arguing against one card, for a much worse card wit 0 upside.

Jace makes valid points. It's all about the curve. You should just "curve" in and agree with his point.. haha, see what I did there? High five!... No? ok I'll just go now.....

I disagree. sacrificing versatility for a much worse, a little cheaper card is bad magic. most of the things you want to get off the board are later in the game in most cases, and if youre building decks well, and hitting your land drops, it wont matter.


and all the right letters are there. I was....testing you....yeah :P

I think the prospect of killing anything is making you too excited when in reality there is, in fact, a very finite list of cards that are worth killing. We've basically discussed and determined that Desecration Demon is the only creature worth going with Heroes Downfall for (which isn't a lot), and while planeswalkers are powerful, they've existed and been dealt with for a long time before target planeswalker removal was a thing. Elspeth? You can overpower her chump 1/1's. Domri? Can't defend himself the turn he comes down. Ashiok? Can't defend herself period. Xenagos? Trample takes care of satyrs. This deck is so good at killing planeswalkers on its own that I don't think it needs target removal to take them out.

Now, you have to weigh that. You say that Desecration Demon is worth it, I say it's not. At the end of the day, neither of us are making the deck, and there's no right answer. So let's let the deckbuilder decide, shall we?

no. Desecration Demon, Obzedat, Chost Council, Cartel Aristocrat(potentially), Xathrid Necromancer, Exava, Varolz, MAster of Cruelties, Corpsejack Menace, Lotleth Troll, Blood Bairn, ect, ect

all of those things make Doom Blade a dead draw.

I dont think youre worried enough about planeswalkers. youll come around.

Lol I think you're too worried about planeswalkers. There's only one planeswalker I'm worried about in upcoming standard. She wears a white robe and answers to "Sun's Champion." Can't wait to slap a Glare of Heresy on that hoe and be like "PIMP THAT SON".

I could go through your list and talk about how Whip just brings back Obzedat anyway and how one does not simply kill-spell a cartel aristocrat and how killing a xathrid necromancer isn't really an advantage and exava is seeing no play and varolz can regenerate and master of cruelties is easy to play around, and how lotleth troll gets regenerated and I have no idea why blood bairn is on this list, etc etc... Oh wait, I just did.

But you got me at Corpsejack Menace. I'll be sure to side it in against those pesky scavenge combo decks that are proliferating rampantly.

you said it yourself, pal. this is a new format, and you have NO idea what is going to be replacing Geist, Huntmaster, thragtusk, ect, ect. Blood Bairn is on this list because I can use it to kill you while you stare at that doom blade in your hand wishing it was a Heros Downfall.

Geist can rot in hell... Hate that card and will not be missed....

I will miss the $100 I dropped on my playset in June... :(

Doesn't matter. Played Geist.

Lol and since it's a new format I think it's quite ridiculous that we are comparing two different kill-spells trying to examine the nuances of each and make overarching statements saying that one is better than the other. It's possible that no deck will even play a planeswalker. It's also possible that no deck will play black. It's also possible that every single opponent you face will cast Slaughter Games naming Doom Blade. NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

Let's wait a couple weeks before returning to this heated debate when we actually have decks and matchups to compare it to.

Read the bones is good.

I have to say, I was underwhelmed with it just looking at it, but played Esper at the prerelease and it was a total all-star. Scry 2 draw 2 is incredibly powerful and can almost always draw you an answer.

We're agreeing! :D

its because you get to Scry first, then draw. it gets through your deck quickly.

Yeah, it's basically draw 3 or 4 assuming you shipped a card or two to the bottom. If not, even better!

Way better than sign in blood. Double-black is just too hard to cast :P

-_-


also better than think twice. Blue players can gdiaf.

Yes I am waiting for the red/black "Scry land" in the next set. Mountians will have to do for now though.

You won't see it until "Born of the Gods" Wizards said they are giving the Gatecrash colours their fair time in the sun this time.

B-but, canyon Minotaur...

dont listen to him! CANYON MINOTAUR!!!

minotaurs dont work? dont make me [Blasphemous Act] two [Boros Reckoners] on you!!!

Pst....Blasphemous Act isnt standard anymore

whoever said that i myself was playing standard? i prefer modern lol

TECHNICALLY it still is, if only for one more day :P

and theres actually a standard tourney tomorrow to win a box of theros lol

Must be where you live I've heard no such thing

yup, it is.

US?

yes. Minnesota

Please someone make Aristocrats in Modern. Anything that's not Jund. PLEASE. SOMEONE. HALP.

Oh well I'm in Australia so that explains it.

that might be the dumbest......too expensive to use in a deck like this? what the hell are you talking about?

*Cough* Well for those of us who live an affordable lifestyle if I'm going to be using a $30 a piece card then I'm going to use it for a Naya competitive deck that's going to get the most efficiency out of the card, not for a tribal deck with an incomplete tribe. This deck would only see casual play from me, although I'd love to see how effective it actually is. I don't mean this in any offense to the creator of the deck, I'm just saying I wish there was a more affordable alternative to Boros Reckoner.

you did not say "I wish there was a more affordable alternative to Boros Reckoner" you said "Boros Reckoner ie way too expensive for this deck" those are not the same thing. and Reckoner is not a $30 card, its a $12 card, but if you would like to buy mine at $30 a piece, ill happily sell them to you. and an "affordable lifestyle" is relative. just because YOU cant afford something, doesnt mean others cant use theirs wherever they want.

*Looks at deck stats*
*Looks at your post*
$50 for a playset of Boros Reckoner. News to me it dropped in price, nobody likes good cards. Yeah I'll take your playsets of Boros Reckoners for $30 a piece. Obviously when someone says a card is too expensive then you consider the alternatives... how long have you been playing magic for? Nevermind that question. You're probably able to pamper your hobby with sufficient amounts of money.

how long have I been playing for? Since '95 kid, with the last 4 being on a competetive level. and it dropped in price over a month and a half ago. spread your ignorance elsewhere.

...is he seriously using asterisk actions? WTF are you 12? if you cant comment on a deck and not hate on what the deck's creator was attempting to accomplish, then get out. magic has no place for obnoxious players like you

*looks at drakeraenes comment*
*looks at what I said*
I said in no offense and I said I wanted a cheaper alternative. I simply ask: Where am I hating?

Are you serious? Still using asterisk quotes smh

That aside, there is NO cheaper alternative to Boros Reckoner. It is a unique card that currently has no equal in its ability. If you cant afford to physically buy them all at once, then budget and buy them over time. Thats what i do! And if after that you still cant afford to get them, then how do you even afford to play magic in the first place? Its not exactly what you would call a cheap hobby

Are you kidding??!! Canyon Minotaur is the best card ever created in the history of magic... It's so powerful and it's stats are second to none. And it's abilities make something like Obzedat wet it's pants!! I direct your attention to the following deck as proof :P

http://www.mtgvault.com/bennyboy777/decks/best-card-ever-canyon-auras/

truthfully canyon minotaur is one of my fav magic cards because of its flavor text. yeah he may not be the greatest minotaur out of the herd, but he never fails to make me grin when i look at him :D

same reason I love GOblin Diplomats. and the are on both versions is AMAZING