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Hi, I am making this deck for my Cousin. She loves Dragons and the deck fairs pretty well already. It seems to be lacking something though and I can't put my finger on it. Speed-wise, dragons come out pretty quick. Any help on how to make this better would be much appreciated. It doesn't have to stay mono red either.
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I like this deck a lot, and it does seem to be able go very aggro. Personally, I would put more removal in the main board, because currently you only have Demanding Dragon and Dragon Tempest, and you are very weak to board wipes. So I would remove a few of the creatures and ramp (the ones that aren't legal in modern) and add more burn and removal. Hope this helps.
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Makes sense. In terms of aggro, if the dragons come out quick it's really nice. Mid to late game, you're right. That's where this deck either gets overrun or stopped cold. Thanks, I'll see what I can figure out. As for Modern, I didn't really care about the format since she mainly plays kitchen table. We did talk about legalities though. I'm sure she will eventually update to Modern.
Fair enough format-wise
i agree with some1 on needing more removal. also i would sub out moltensteel for more scourge of valkas or maybe steel hellkite. its ability to blow stuff up is nice.
Steel Hellkite FTW. +1
What budget, legality, and competitive level are you going for?
Budget, doesn't matter at this point.Legality, Let's go ahead and say Modern only. So, I'll be making the updates soon.Competitive level, at the moment, kitchen table
you could do what i do in dragon decks and cheat by splashing black for heartless summoning and some fatal pushes to keep people held off until your dragons can take the field on turn three.
Yes! You have a deck list I can check out?
i can definitely put something together for you to go off of. got any idea what kind of budget you were looking at. my original deck is a bit buried and i cant find it . sorry on the slow response, i haven't been on in a little while.
No problem. I think a good budget would be roughly $100. Shock lands and stuff can be added over time, but the initial deck is most important. Thanks! :)
hi, sorry this took so long. https://www.mtgvault.com/clawzizking/decks/heartless-dragons/here's an updated take on my list with a list of upgrades in the sideboard.
Thanks Clawzizking! +1
When examining your deck, you might want to narrow in your dragons at being either the top or the bottom of you curve (ie mana cost).If you want to stick to the cheaper dragons, you can replace much of your mana ramp with tribal enchantments like Dragon Tempest and Crucible Of fire.If you want higher mana cost dragons but avoid the graveyard shenanigans of splashing black (and therefore stay mono-red) I think you could use some better ramp choices. Why wait til next turn for your mana artifacts when you can get that mana .. now! Look at "seething song", "Desperate ritual" and "Pyretic Ritual". Any of the Sarkhan planewalkers (especially sarkhan, fireblood)will also fit nicely into this deck. Removal like "spit fire" and "chandra's ignition" is useful in a dragon deck. Here is a link to my Black/Red Dragon EDH deck. Might get some ideas from there.https://www.mtgvault.com/strykerzero/decks/kologhan-the-storms-fury/
Also "sarkhan's triumph" is a 3 mana mono-red instant that will fetch any dragon you want from your library into your hand.. Nesting Dragon is an option for a lower CMC dragon that can get pretty dangerous later when combo'ed with Crucible of Fire.
Awesome! Thanks! :)
I agree with the comments that u probably need to add some removal spells. My biggest thing is having a turn one play in all my decks. Without a turn 1 play, you're putting yourself (or your cousin) at a HUGE disadvantage against aggro decks. Idk what your mtg scene is like, whether it's mostly casual or competitive or casually competitive. My brother and I never stuck to any formats, so the arms race between our decks got intense very quickly. Turn 1 plays are usually what tips the games we play, if only cause it gets the ball rolling and eventually a snowball begins to happen where one of us is just doing more per turn than the other.To that end you might wanna consider cards like Lightning Bolt, Simian Spirit Guide (don't summon, just exile from hand for mana), or Gamble, which will let you make some early moves. I would also consider cards like Final Fortune, Last Chance, or Warrior's Oath, which can let you scrape that victory by the skin of your teeth in those high intensity situations. Sorry if this post is getting too large, but one of the last points I want to make is that you should consider adding some non-basic lands, especially since you have cards like Ruby Medallion and Geosurge. Assuming you don't steamroll your opponent in 3 or 4 turns, you'll eventually have an excess of mana and a lack of places to spend it. Even if you jack up the nearest dragon with an activated ability, you might still have some leftover. Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle is a perfect addition that would let you keep pumping out damage to supplement your attack power and remove potential threats/blockers at the same time. Also consider adding cards that let you draw, so that you can refill your hand and keep casting multiple spells per turn. Nothing sucks more than an empty hand, cause your opponent will know that you have no tricks up your sleeve.The name of the game is actions per turn. Once you can focus those actions towards a unified goal, this deck will go from a cutesy dragon tribal deck to a frighteningly aggro dragon-burn deck. Idk what your deck-building process is, but consider these key questions: What does this deck's first three turns look like? Are the first three turns consistent or variable? What is the specific win condition of this deck, and what's the quickest way to fulfill that condition? Are there any redundancies within the deck and if so, how important is it to have those cards that do essentially the same thing? Okay, I'll stop here... sorry if this was too much. Good luck with the deck and I hope your cuz appreciates all the work you put into this!!
I get the desire for a turn one play. However the statistics involved make it unrealistic. to manage. https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspxFor example (using the above calculator). If you want an 80%+ chance of having a turn 1 play in a 60 card deck, you need at least 12 cards to play on that first turn. that represents almost 33% of your decks non-land cards. Aggro decks are not the same thing as combo decks. An aggro deck will still need 2-3 turns to win (the 1 turn win decks are all combo decks reliant on lucky starting hands). You are better off having a sideboard to provide the cards needed to reset the aggro player on Turn 2-3. The longer games go, the harder it is for aggro to win. Just stalling for 1-2 turns is often enough. I like how the deck above is positioned currently against aggro. The deck above has "mainboard" 12 two mana creatures. He/she can suicide block with them as needed against aggro. Once a CMC 4+ dragon hits the field, an aggro opponent is basically done. The challenge here is against Mid range and control. A single counter-spell or board wipe will effectively prevent the 6-8 Mana creatures from ever being cast. There are not enough lands to realistically ever cast them without ramp effects Looking a the mana curve: If you include the ruby medallions into thr land count, you only have a 67% chance of being of to cast 3 mana spells on your third turn. The dragon shamans will help carry that average into 4 mana on turn 4, but the odds for going higher than that plummet. This deck NEEDS a massive threat on the field no later than turn 5. A focused aggro deck can win by this point, and a control deck will have acquired the resources it needs to stop you. The Modern format tends to revolve around turn 4-5 being the "game winning state" as the benchmark for high level performance. Casual decks don't need to adhere to this (and i wouldnt want them to) , but its a useful way to evaluate them.
I definitely agree that turn 1 plays aren't everything, I don't have any turn 1 combo decks, as many are very expensive to create and, as you said, are very reliant on clinching the opening hand. Games like that are games won before they even start, which kind of defeats the purpose, imo. Thank you for sharing that link, I'm going to use it to better understand the decks I'm currently building and have already built. I also agree that it is unrealistic in some respects for this deck to have a guaranteed turn 1 play, but I think it's also important to note that there are a few niche cards that can bypass mana costs, which might prove useful. Simian Spirit Guide, which I had mentioned before, is useful at almost any point in the game and can let you cast spells that you might not have been able to cast at any particular turn, so at the very least, I'm committed to the idea that it would have a good impact on this deck. I would personally replace Iron Myr with SSG, especially since there are cards that more effectively reduce the cost of summoning dragons. The myr just feels too slow, imo. I strongly agree with many of your points, especially your claim that this deck needs a game-changer by turn 5, especially considering your points concerning mid-range and control decks, which is why I agree with one of the earlier comments that Scourge of Valkas is a strong card to consider adding. At the same time, I think this deck will really struggle against noncreature-spell heavy decks, So some form of board removal (destroying target permanent(s), or target artifact/enchantment) would do wonders for the mid-game of this deck, like the comment below points out. I think this deck would benefit from at least a splash of another color.
steel hellkite is a 6 mana (artifact) dragon that is a great mutipurpose board removal tool. People often miss it when building decks because its colorless.
Excellent feedback and advice. Much appreciated! I'll be sitting down with her soon to go over this deck.
I see a problem in board removal, killing your servants (Myr, Goblin, Shaman) will prevent you from playing the big guys early so maybe you could consider adding some Planeswalker to your deck for a little more support. Koth of the Hammer for example can produce a huge ammount of mana but isn't cheap to play with CMC 4 while Sarkhan, Fireblood seems a better option and you aren't stuck at mono red dragon spells anymore.If you want to splash, Domri, Anarch of Bolas is a good option not just for the additional mana but also the power boost it offers and you'll also get an option for removal (having your dragons fight anything).What I like to play is Dragon Arc and fokus on multicolored dragons and something like Captain Sissay to fetch anything I like
Dope! I like your suggestions. Added them to the sideboard so I can plan out a new rendition of this deck. Much appreciated! :)
It has a decent mana curve, but no control, and no way to get any more card advantage. Once you play a lot of cheap spells, you'll probably run out of steam. I'd suggest Howling Mine/Font of Mythos for draw (there's also some red spells that can), and quite possibly Dragonstorm which would be vicious if you cast a lot of the lower cost spells first.
Nice! Thanks for the tips. Added them to the sideboard so I can plan out a revision. +1
I would think that 8-12 High cost/Value dragons would be all that the deck needs to win. You should be able to draw into one of the 8 by turn 4. The rest of the deck can be fully dedicated to removal and increasing available mana.26 Lands should be enough to ensure the 4th land drop on the fourth turn. If "Geo Surge" is played on Turn-4, that allows the immediate cast of a 7 mana dragon. The dragon shamans (and potentially, "Sarkhan, The Fireblood",) can allow the casting a a 6-mana one. Summoning sickness will prevent you from attacking that turn so, you swing your pick threat turn 5 (hitting the benchmark goal i mentioned earlier) The sweet spot here seems to be 6-7 mana dragons.TTLDR:26 Lands, 8-12 Dragons that cost 6-7 mana. Everything else (22-26 cards) : Mana ramp, Interaction/Removal, and something granting haste.
I think the Dragon Tempest's are good for Haste. Lowering the dragons a bit, and some of the dorks is good. I agree with you. Thanks for all your posts! +1 (again) hehe
Mono-red has challenges with card draw. Most of their effects require discarding (resulting in the number of cards in hand not actually growing) I did discover a niche little combo for my dragon edh deck purely using red. Replace "Dragon Tempest" with "Anger" (its a creature) and "Dragon Breath" (enchantment). Put in 8 copies of "looting" mechanic cards (faithless looting, wild guess, tormenting voice)Discard "Anger" and/or "Dragon breath" (which you would want to do in a deck of 6+ cmc creatures) and draw cards. Not only do you get card advantage, you ensure haste on your 4th turn (mana ramped) dragon.As an example:12 Mana Ramp (Geo surge, Dragon Speaker Shaman, Seething Song)8 "loot" (faithless Looting, Tormenting Voice)8 "haste" (Dragon Breath, Anger) 8 6-7 CMC dragons24 Lands= 60 cards
Awesome! I can definitely see where you're coming from here. I usually don't go higher than 21 lands, and in my own I've been lingering around 17 to 20. Thankfully, we have untap.in to test out different builds. :)
Wow, thanks guys. I didn’t expect it to get so many responses. I appreciate everything 100%. Let me go through all the responses before I respond specifically. Thanks a lot! :)