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Insidious: 1. Proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects 2. Treacherous; Crafty This is my version of the combo that me and Kharay1977 both had using Bloodchief Ascension, Maralen of Mornsong, and Archive Trap
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First off since I can't put it in the deck. Here are the other cards that I either want or just haven't decided to put in it yet. I want to see how it plays this weekend first. Extra Cards: Spy Network Dash Hopes Arcane Laboratory Doom Blade Sunken Ruins Underground River Watery Grave Underground Sea (I plan on actually adding this one once I have the cash for it) Jwar Isle Refuge
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It's a different approach indeed, the end result being the same obviously. Aren't you worried about really aggressive decks? I mean - in my approach I'm being the aggressive one, pumping out the combo as fast as I can. In your version, you're basically waiting for Maralen. And given the fact she will hurt you as well as your opponent, aren't you worried that in the meanwhile, while you were waiting for her to appear from your library, you will have suffered too much damage to be able to get away with casting her? Or are you going about it in the fashion I was considering for a while as well - using other means to satisfy the quest on Bloodchief Ascension and simply casting Maralen at the last second, when the quest is (nearly) done? That is a very viable play as well, truth be told. One I'd probably see on the board more than once, even with my version. Just hacking away at them with Creeping Tar Pit or something. Or randomly countering stuff with Countersquall.
Since I normally play aggressive, I am actually not too worried. Over the last two months I have played my Super Aggressive standard black/green infect deck, and my aggressive green/blue landfall deck. They did really well in the tournaments and I played them in some legacy tournaments as well. The only decks to take them apart was defensive black/blue control decks that had Jace the Mind Sculptor in them. I am taking from these decks that it doesn't matter how aggressive you are when they can simply stop spells like they were nothing. That is the one thing I learned over the last two months (I HATE black/blue control decks) so I decided to share my hate my own way. You are right, I am trying to be a little more patient with Maralen, but I still want to dark ritual her in on third turn (so that I have two untapped mana) but if I do not have a dark ritual 3rd turn than I will wait longer and defend until it is time. I do hope for a Bloodchief Ascension first turn though. The way I look at it, just as long as I keep killing and countering what they have and let the stuff that doesn't bother me slip through, I think I will be fine until the time is right.
I went ahead and added the Underground Seas to the deck list since I will be buying them eventually when I have the cash to spare. I also added 2 more lands to take it from 20 to 22 out of fear of being mana shorted and took that away from the Sign in Blood. I didn't realize until now that you could draw sample hands at this site. So I am testing it out to tweak it before the weekend.
I took your advice Kharay about just using dual lands, so I decided to use two Watery Graves and two Sunken Ruins so that I can reduce my land back down to 20. I ultimately decided against Underground River because I don't want it to hurt me every time I need black/blue mana. I am considering switching out the Sunken Ruins for Jwar Isle Refuge because they will give me one life even though they come into play tapped, but I am weighing the cons of only drawing two Sunken Ruins. Damn, this sample hand thing has me second guessing some of my decisions now.
I was going back and forth on the Underground River as well, reason I ultimately did decide to keep them in - card drawing. Ultimately, chances are very good I will draw a land that'll offer me both {U} and {B} as well, without hurting me. Next to the Underground River. So, use the Underground River's {U} or {B} for just turn 1 or 2 at the most and use it for its colorless mana for the remainder of the game. I'm where you are right now, contemplating a lot of things as a result of sample hands.
Just looking at your deck, I'm starting to make all these comparisons trying to find the balance between ours. Some ideas running through my mind right now: Kharay's Deck: Focuses on playing the combo as fast as possible, with a balance of defensive counterspells and some activation, through tarpits and Maralen. Fast to find and play, potentially slow to activate, but relatively balanced. Potential for countering like yours, but not the focus. My Deck: Focuses on activating the combo and dealing damage. Similar speed and consistency with some scrying and drawing, maybe not as good with Beseech. Aggressive, activates faster using spells, but weak to removal since I'm not running any counterspells. Potential for board control like yours, but not the focus. BrainDamage's Deck: Most defensive, focusing on counterspells and anti-creature spells. This is good because you'll be the most protected, but you have no direct way to activate the ascension. On the other hand, you made some really nice choices with the spells (Countersquall, Hideous End, etc) so that you'll activate while defending yourself. I think your biggest weakness is that you simply have no way to find Maralen or the Ascension other than drawing them, and 2 Sign in Blood probably won't help you too much. But if you can hold out till you get it, which you should with four of each, the activation will come within 3 turns, and your opponent should give you an opportunity to do it sooner. Strategy Summary: Me - play Bloodchief, attack with spells to activate it, destroy creatures to protect my life, then play Maralen whenever I get her Kharay - play Maralen as soon as possible, protect her and bloodchief, activate if possible or wait and hit as soon as she finishes activating it BrainDamage - patience. Protect yourself with GftT and Counterspell, play Maralen whenever you get her, then activate indirectly with spells based on how your opponent is playing (creatures/spells). Something like that....let us know how it goes in tournament, I believe all planning and preconceptions are readjusted when you actually have to react to an opponent, which is where your deck is the most stable :) Also an anti-suggestion: I haven't looked at most of the spells, but I wouldn't add Doom Blade. You shouldn't need that many destroy spells. I would suggest sideboarding it though, if you find that Hideous End isn't enough. In my deck, I replaced Doom Blade with Hideous End - which I will trade with Go for the Throat if my opponent is playing a black deck, i.e. vampires. For you, I would only keep DB for an alternative to GftT if your opponent is playing artifacts. Just how I play :)
It's very interesting indeed, the three different approaches. Personally, I still feel most comfortable with my version. But there is something to be said for the other versions as well. Pro's and cons regarding the three versions, in my opinion: My version: Pro: It will pull off the Maralen / Bloodchief Ascension / Archive Trap combo. Con: ... or die trying. That's the primary thing I can see going wrong at this time - an even faster deck really hammering Maralen. Summary: In my opinion the most pure of the three approaches, really intent on pulling off the 3 card combo. FyreFiend's version: Pro: It will pull off the Bloodchief Ascension's quest, no doubt about that. Con: Thing I can see going wrong here, well... mostly, life gaining and delaying your chances of dropping Maralen on the table. Summary: The most aggressive one with regards to the quest on the Bloodchief Ascension. BrainDamage's version: Pro: Stability. Con: Lack of speed. Summary: In the end, this version will probably perform the best against the widest range of decks it faces, of the three versions. It would definitely be incredibly interesting to see all three of them actually make it into reality. I'm still stumped for money however, so... it might take me a while to actually build it, really not having any luck whatsoever landing a new job. ;)
I changed my deck around to make it quicker but still defensive. I took out the some Watery Graves, and added 2 islands and 2 swamps. Why? Personally I want at least 8 chances of lands between making sure if I happen to draw a Drowned Catacombs that it will have a chance to come into play untapped. I took out 1 Go For The Throat, and 1 Hideous End, because I want to make sure that there is the option for both in the first game depending on what my opponent has, if they have neither black nor artifacts than it will do nicely, if they have either than I will easily switch them out for something else, if they have both (black artifacts... ooohhh Noooo), than its time for more counter spells. I took out the Sign In Blood's and put them into the side board. Why? 1: To make room for Beseech The Queen so that I can have more chances to get to either Bloodchief Ascension or Maralen of the Mornsong. 2: With out the Bloodchief Ascension and Maralen of the Mornsong the Sign In Blood is practically useless, it has some use with Bloodchief Ascension but if Maralen is still not out than they still get to draw which I kinda personally hate... so I put them in the side board for now. 3: With Beseech the Queen I can make sure I get Maralen out, she will trigger the Bloodchief Ascension, and if I have Maralen out I could use her to find a Bloodchief Ascension if anything else so I rather have more chances to get it right. Problems: Worst case scenario, I draw a hand full of land, Beseech the Queen, Maralen of Mornsong, and Bloodchief Ascension (crap, I have the combo but I have nothing else I need to play D nor a Dark Ritual). Remedy: Use Beseech the Queen to find the stuff I need and than Maralen will take care of the rest. I am still afraid of being mana shorted so I am testing in between right now as well, with 22 lands. Alright, now that I am done ranting on, I have to agree with the two of you that FyreFiend, if nothing else you WILL trigger the Bloodchief Ascension, the only suggestion I have for you if you are looking to balance the deck is to add some Dash Hopes, it will go nice with the Bloodchief Ascension and help you protect it, Cons: Dash Hopes is not 100%, they may just pay the 5 life... especially if they are doing something such as disenchanting your Bloodchief Ascension but Hey, its at least something and like I said it will go nice with the Bloodchief Ascension. Kharay1977, your deck will is quick and aims to get the combo out quickly, and it puts the pressure on which is nice. You have some D with counter squall's so that is a plus too. I am not too sure about adding the queen though, Glissa is the perfect attacker/defender but adding green might bring everything crashing down... I am not sure, you will have to try. My suggestion, sub out Glissa for some Vampire Nighthawks, they are equally as good in their own way, they might not be 3/3 first strike death touch but they ARE 2/3 flying life link death touch for 3 mana as well and its black so no worries of splicing in new colors. My deck, out of fear of it taking too long to do what it needs to do because me and Kharay1977 are aim for the same time of end game, I am trying to make it more slightly quicker. Beseech the Queen will give me some breathing room to try and find the other cards I am looking for while I still have everything (minus two kill spells) to play D with.
I was actually looking at Vampire Nighthawk. But, all in all, I think Glissa is a slightly better option, as long as I find solid ways to generate {G}. Not only is she a far more aggressive creature in combat, she also has that secondary ability of being able to retrieve Artifacts from my GY. An aim for the cards I select has always been to have multiple uses for single cards. Such as replacing Aethermage with Herald, so I can search for 2 cards at once for actually 1 mana less. Which is not to say the Nighthawk wouldn't do well in the deck, it would do just fine. It's just that slight edge Glissa has, in my opinion anyhow. We'll see how sample hands turn out.
I think we're all starting to reach the same perspective on this, and I like a lot of what both of you have suggested regarding all three decks. The green has its pros and cons, it just requires testing but I certainly won't be changing mine to three colors. I had originally thought of using vampires, but that seemed to unoriginal and not particularly effective; everyone has their ways of dealing with creatures, which is why I preffered the aggressive burn and/or the indirect activations you're using. After freeing up some space, though, I am going to add Dash Hopes to my deck. If nothing else, one of the strengths of mine is that I can finish the game without the combo. I'll look at more ways to balance defense in mine now that I have redundant cards like Sign in Blood and Magma Jet, athough I think the Sideboard will end up being an important factor for me.
A key reason for me to use Glissa as opposed to other means is that whereas your version, FyreFiend, is rich in ways of completing the quest on the Bloodchief Ascension, that single element was turning out just a mild hint weak in my version. At least in my opinion. I'm still not sure on keeping her though. It all comes down to being able to generate {G} without suffering in {U} or {B}. All in all though I am so glad that the three of us have stuck with the core concept of our own version of the deck. FyreFiend is hellbent on sticking with causing loss of life, completing the quest. BrainDamage, absolutely sure about going defense, going control. And me, absolutely passionate about getting Maralen out and letting her do the talking. It'd be absolutely wonderful to actually see all three decks in action, in close proximity. In the same tournament or something. But, well... that... might prove challenging indeed. Not the least of which - distance. *grin*
For your consideration: - Blood Clock ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=84709 ) - Board control which has some use in conjunction with the Bloodchief Ascension.
Blood clock would be nice in the deck, but I am trying to keep the mana cost low. I am actually glad that most of everything cost two or less with the exception of a few spells.
It would be nice to see these together, though I won't make any comment on the likelihood of that happening or on which deck would go farther in tournament :P As for Blood Clock...it's interesting, but I don't see it being useful for two reasons. First off, the mana cost; I'd like to keep my deck down to 3 mana max, and I'm favoring the 2 mana spells. Secondly...can't you just return a land? That's what I would do if I were playing, to avoid the damage, unless I had another one in my hand and knew I needed both this turn.
I did list the suggestion specifically here in BrainDamage's version for a reason. ;) Since he's playing the control version and neither of us (FyreFiend & Kharay1977) are. And yes, they can just return a land each and every turn... the net result of which is... what? Exactly, being stuck at the same amount of land indefinitely. Now, that will slow you down, no matter who you are. So, it offers 3 things: - Possible board control, unless they're willing to take a loss of life, in which: - Counters on Bloodchief Ascension. and last but definitely not least: - Possibly: the time needed to pull the kill off, unless the opponent is playing a very low mana curve deck. And... all that... for naught. It costs {4} to play and from that point on will simply keep doing its thing, over and over again. I think that's a fairly good deal, to be quite honest.
I changed my deck and my side board around to have a little variety.