Legacy Extraction

Thanks for the comment :-) regarding the Isochrons - I really wanted to mainboard them, but i can't justify removing anything else. I see your point for more fetches, I do have 2 more Verdant's but I only have 2 swamps in here.
I'm honored for the 'Follow' =D
Hope you'll enjoy some of my libraries. I'll be sure to check some of yours too ^_^~

Thanks, man =) I'll be sure to do some P. I. on that - if it'll work, then its aaaall good ^_^
I'm currently on my mobile - when I'm on my pc I'll check it out. Also, good to hear from you again, Holmes. Hope you're okay

I agree with everything Jens said, but I'd say drop to two Bloodghasts instead of three. The deck has a lower kill demand than one that runs, say, Smokestack...So two will do just fine. Not sure if that means you should run three Tidehollows, though I do love that card. It always seems to force your opponent to make bad decisions.

I like this man, it really has been a while since I've seen an elegantly simple disrupt-extraction.

I still say three, more bodies to throw at the opponent. Certainly it has lower demand for them, but a recursive beat stick is a recursive beatstick is a recursive beatstick(BB).

I am going to add a couple of Scullers - that card is just bonkers with Cabal Therapy =O The reason I have 4 x Entomb is not just for the Bloodghasts, but also for land (Crucible) and artifact (Buried Ruin) but most of all Cabal Therapy. You see, I've had to deal with some Counter-heavy decks, also Goyfs, so I Entomb Therapy and sac a Ghast to remove other threats and hopefully have {B} to cast Extitpate and/or two life for Surgical. Sculler is downright dirty with cabal - good call, Jens ! I'll definitely think about Hymns.

Also, thank you SWN for the comment, made my day once more and gave me something to think about. You guys are awesome ! =D

Sculler is downright dirty in general. It's a creature, it's temporary hand extraction/disruption, and if you sac it you can set the stack so the LTB finishes before the ETB for a permanent exile. The cruelest thing I've seen done with them is using them as fuel for Thoughtpicker Witch... Lemme exile two cards, one in hand, and one of the top two of your library, and do it for only three mana.

It's also worth noting that Tidehollow just so happens to be one of the more difficult creatures in the game to get rid of through the use of kill spells. Doom Blade, Terror, Go for the Throat, and in fact, Victim of Night all don't work. Like I said, it forces people to make bad decisions =]

That right there? That's why I play Smother. Oh, and Ghastly Demise.

Spidy-sense be tinkling... me likey alot :D

Seriously though, thanks to the both of you for helping me out. I have seen Tidehollow before, but somehow... someway.. my brain wasn't functioning properly. Even at this moment I'm having trouble understanding the full capacity of FFFFUUUUU- it gives... I'll definitely be hunting Sculler's Monday.

*bows and waves*

Do you like the revised version of it? I've removed the Ancient Tomb plus an Urborg and added 2 TW plus the last Surgical - I can't wait to test it soon =)

I quite like it, but I still say it'll be smoother with less Entomb, and more hand disruption.

Thanks, man =) I get what you mean by hand disruption, but having a Cabal T. in your yard actually doubles its effect. You cast it, then Tidehollow, sac Tidehollow/Ghast, for its return. I'll definitely keep Hymn to Tourach in mind, since I already have a ps of them. I have also, just yesterday, ordered a ps of Gerrards Verdict and are thinking of adding them to the mix.

Also struggling a bit with the SB - I hope for an epiphany ! Soon !

Yeah, it doubles itself, but it doesn't double your chances of having disruption in your hand early on is the thing. Also, I'd almost always rather sac a Ghast for it than a Tidehollow. Certainly, Tidehollow gives you previous knowledge, but if you can hold onto the card it's nomming, /and/ hit something else? That's just beauty in efficiency.

Yes ! Do you like Gerrard's Verdict, sure, not as powerful as Hymn, but many see's it as a worthy 2nd place'r =)
In fact, something just came to mind. *If* they discard a non-basic land, I'll get life bonus and be able to extract them !
I think +2 Godles Shrine +4 Gerrards Verdict, but what to remove? Hmm... Entomb, you say... I'll do some playtesting when they arrive =D

Gerrad's Verdict is nice, I just never know how to feel about it really. It has the lifegain potential, which is nice, but it also not randomized, so it's a trade-off. I usually prefer Hymn since it hurts more. And for whichever one you go with, I'd say go down to one Entomb, and one Ensnaring Bridge.

Alright, my friend =) I'll try that out later tonight - thank you for your words of wisdom, I hope to repay you some time soon

Thank you =) however the Entombs are not just for Bloodghasts, they are for much much more ~_^ either Lands, Artifacts or Cabal Therapy. This deck wins when opponent decks out, or locks the board when all opp's critters ETB tapped and never untaps. Also Deathrite is insane by itself, he helps with extraction or fixes me Mana - it is not a fun feeling to be victorious with this deck, and its not why I built it. The reason is, these kind of deck are fun TO build, not so much battling someone. You could say - It's the thrill of the chase ^_^

Oh okay I did not realize you were planning on decking them. That explains it a bit better. And I see your reasoning now for the Blind Obedience Meekstone combo. Well cool deck man! Always a fan of Surgical Extraction and Cabal Therapy, and the rest of the list seems to work well too.

Blind Obedience and Meekstone kind of craps on the day of some decks he's mentioned going against before, so I think the redundancy is for a safety net.

I suggest three because it's just been the best number for me, but in retrospect it would better fit the idea of the deck to run the full playset I agree. Also, I still say Dredge is epic, as is even budget MBC.

@Logazor: Jens is absolutely right, it combo's so well with Meekstone, rendering many decks useless. The Legacy meta, where I play, is packed with Force of Will's, Tarmogoyf's, Daze's, Stifle's and Fetches. And Blind Ob + Meek can be very distupty against thos kind of decks ^_^

And don't worry about not being able to help - I like to explain it. I just hope I have done so well enough ^_^

Thanks for the help. I was aware of the meekstone lock, but my meta does a good job of playing around meekstone. Since I play dredge and someone plays reanimator, more people have been main-decking scavenging oozes instead of tarmogoyfs. Death and Taxes is also played. Hmm. Now that I think of it, the opportunity cost of running 3 vs 2 is not nearly high enough to drop any, nor is there any real incentive to play 4.

I about cried when a Maverick player I konw sent me his most recent list... It had; 4 Deathrite Shamans, 1 Dryad Militant, 3 Scavenging Oozes. Needless to say right now I'm not playing my Dredge, Reanimator, or Lands for a bit...
http://i.imgur.com/Y1jAWgu.jpg

Maverick... The person who took D&T and strapped it to an atombomb, that peson can only be Mr. Burns.
"...Excellent...!"
bah. buh. beh. I'm struggling with D&T enough as it is already, don't need more humiliation, haha. Just kidding - it is an awesome deck to lose to.
"You can only get better by playing a better player." ...or someone very, very. VERY rich

D&T is worse for my decks that aren't graveyard based, but I really don't like how much hate Maverick has... This is why my current form of Contamination Pox is so weird, it was tailored to beating Maverick believe it or not. A lot of our Zoo players made the jump somewhere along the way, and so I'm no longer able to just indiscriminately go all in.

I can't agree with that last line enough, but the very rich bit only shows you what you could do with an optimized build though I think. There's a lot of good decks that are relatively cheap for Legacy that can be absolutely monstrous with a good pilot. I can't tell you how many times I've actually been shutdown by somebody playing a budgeted Dragon Stompy for instance.

I stand corrected, good sir ! The pilot has a helluva lot to say in the means of a**kicking. It was a poor attempt of humor :-/

Oh! Now I see what you did there, Bl@ckf¡r£_Ph¤en¿x ;-P

Even though I only really play legacy and modern on summer, winter, and spring vacations (my summer classes are online, so it's OK if I stay up 'till 3), doing drafts every friday and EDH every Saturday has greatly increased how well I play legacy and Modern, but not nearly as much as actually playing legacy and modern.

I'm sorry! I'm not in the best state lately, and humor was about the first thing to slip.

I guess I have been checking my notifications and commenting here just so I could talk to people who love this format... just so I could get more notifications and do something with this account so that I don't have to go to a forum. Comments are more fun than forums, imo.

Anyhow, just so I'm not booted for being garrulous, I shall relate this to the topic at hand. I personally would try to find room for another sculler, but your mana base seems a bit iffy for three of them. So two seems about right. How's your mana working for you? Did you proxy this deck and test with it?

I suggest adding a Riftstone Portal or two. Just pitch it with Entomb and you're good to go.

@Logazor - Sounds cool, but aren't you afraid that it will be too addictive ? My wife and I were heading to a bad place, because I focused on MtG too much. Now we have decided to rip a few days out of the week, where we spend the entire day together as much as we can, no MtG. Sounds weird, I know, but it is actually quite healthy, at least in my case ~_^

@Jens - hey, man, don't be sad. The Internet is undoubtedly *the* place for misunderstandings, so no hard feelings =) I see that you've gotten an invite to another online MtG place, sounds awesome and I'm glad for you =D I think it's cool that someone beyond The Vault have recognized your skills - kudos my friend ^_^

@SWN - suggestion duly noted and while I'm hunting for Tidehollows, I might as well purchase a few Riftstones - Thanks, man ! I'm actually a bit disappointed that I didn't include those from the very beginning.

*Salute to the three of you =)

@Logazor: I know what you mean... Forums promote a very elitist attitude usually it seems, or at least they have in my experience. The only times I've had an actually nice time on forums for MtG were on here, and when Jericho was a thing. Brewing for that deck never really went very far, it was more or less just finding out which package which people played better.

@Sure: I dunno, I think one should be enough, especially with the full set of Entomb and Mox Diamond. I'd sooner recommend a third Undiscovered Paradise, but then again, I'm entirely biased towards three copies of it and Bloodghast. Always been the best numbers for me.

@Bl@ckfirI£_Phoen¿x: Still, I'll always feel terrible about things like that. And yeah, I'm going to check it out, not sure how it'll be though. People from outside the vault don't usually mingle it seems, but when they do, they usually find somebody who plays something similar to them, and lend an invite.


*does a little dance*

Thanks, man =) I'm currently collecting all the missing pieces, it will take a while, but hey, MTG !

Hi ! Sadly, no tourneys yet, but it has seen a little play - Against Mana-Less Dredge I would highly recommend to Extract the Golgari Troll (that is, if you meta-play - I don't, so my combatant won, hehe ~_^ )
Probably the best advice I can give you, is: Be patient =)
Don't stress out even if the odds are against you, you still have a chance to be victorious.
Some time ago, I battled against a DelverBob, and my opponent ended up killing himself with Dark Confidant, simply because he revealed Ad Nauseum when at 4 life.
Also, if you are victorious, for me - playing Extraction - there is no joy in winning, because it can be quite the devastating experience for your fellow Mage.

Hope I have answered to your liking =) If you have anything else, please don't be afraid to ask ^_^

Cheers

Thanks so much! I do play a pretty rough local meta. Lots of top tier decks in the mix and alot of really good players. Came and cleaned house a few times with an affinity deck noone was prepared for and have been working on this blue/black extraction deck for a little over a year to come back and surprise everyone. Don't get very much practice obviously because exactly like you say, it is devastating to play against with most of the common legacy decks and downright unfun to secure a win most times... But win it does all the same.

To be honest I'm having real difficulty working on my sideboard and clearing 4 cards from my main deck to get it down to 60. It runs smooth as silk at 64, but obviously I should be working on getting the count down in the efficiency range. Just tough to find something to remove that doesn't really contribute to the overall strategy. Hoping to work in dual lands and fetches and maybe some land destruction lands as they become available.

What do you suggest? Thanks again for the help.

"In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him." -- Ender Wiggin.

I think this is why it is often less than enjoyable to win with Extraction.

I just know how I would feel playing across from a deck whose sole purpose was to remove everything that made my deck function. Like a fast growing brain tumor, robbing you of all your faculties one after the other. You can have operations to try and prevent it, and sometimes you'll stop the tumor from growing and fight it off for a while. But it always takes a little bit of you with it. Takes a part of you that you can never get back...

Until the next game when you get to experience it all over again.

@Refugeanoth : I've commented on your Extraction deck - hope I've helped you out =)

@SWN: I get that feeling sometimes, but mostly it's the dominating sense of pity, and if I win... remorse.

Truly did, and thanks again. Too bad you aren't in my local meta, I'd bet that between the two of us, we could clean out a room of mages who once enjoyed playing magic lol.

I often wonder why there aren't more decks like these running around. Seems like a sound strategy that really doesn't give much room to the opponent for victory, but the most I ever see is extraction or extripate sideboarded or in some sort of black discard shell (waiting for m15 and waste not! haha)

Sure man, haha

Yeah, I'm saving some of my discard spells for Waste Not - a buddy of mine has a MBDiscard deck and I've promised to get him a playset when it hits

Responded, and nice. It's going to be a doozy for sure.

Extraction decks are a rare sight because quite frankly they're really hard to pilot. The player has to know so much about how a deck works, and more importantly, how a deck could be made to NOT work. It requires both a specific mindset and a hell of a lot of experience/knowledge. It's obviously not the most appealing thing in those regards.

Or it's the most appealing thing ;) personally I love the idea of it. Just feel for the poor soul across from me when his carefully constructed strategy gets disassembled before his very eyes.

I think I would love to play a similar style, but I can't stand using artifacts to lock my opponent down. Enchantments are fine, but I just feel /wrong/ using artifacts. Eh. It's a personal thing. I do very much enjoy the idea of Snap Still with extraction.

What would it look like when one combined this with a SnapStill deck such as the one created by Jen (http://www.mtgvault.com/jensdagon/decks/the-power-of-nope-compels-you/)?

It would probably look some $1000 more expensive, and also $1000 more hardcore. Jens is one of the mages on the Vault I respect most, and I haven't seen a single one of his decks that would fizzle in combat. But I haven't thought of mixing two of such, an appealing notion for sure, I just can't bear the fact to plagiarize one of his decks and tear it up with this.
I also don't have that kind of money to build it IRL, but thanks for the suggestion =)

Am I honestly the only one who enjoys winning just as much as any deck? Well, not Doomsday, or Pox, those decks are special. I don't really get anything out of winning, I mostly actually play the game because the points between are fun.

And I don't really think my SnapStill deck would accept Extraction very well. But it's worth looking into. And Logazor, if you want to play that manner of control without Artifacts, you're going to have quite a time. Enchantments are too restrictive to use as your only source of static control.

And Blackfire, I'm touched that you think that! But I must point out that the reason you don't see any decks of mine that would fizzle is because I try things out before turning them public. My first project deck was CounterTop Braids, and it was absolutely horrible... But it was invaluable as a learning tool for me. Seth from the forums suggested to me the disruption package I've tinkered into the one I currently use as a default even.
And if you feel bad about plagiarizing my decks, just remember that anything you want to experiment is worth more than any list I've done.
Without experimentation we stagnate, and if you think you have a way to improve one, it could be the next big thing.

I know, I know. I wasn't talking about this deck in particular; I love the artifacts in it. For me, it's a matter of what deck I'd prefer to play. I dislike the art on artifacts for there is not enough color in my opinion. In black decks, I always like running lorowyn swamps. I tend to favour art over effectiveness. BUT I also want to play competitively. Birthing pod (for modern), Snapcaster Control, Dredge, Berserk infect, and shardless BUG are some of my favorite decks both to play (as proxys) and play against because of both the art and interactions.

This deck seems to need the artifacts to lock down the opponent.
But I don't like playing with artifacts.
I prefer instants and creatures.
And more instants.
More.

But that's just me. This isn't the deck for me. It seems quite efficient in management of mana cost and card use balance, but I prefer taking advantage of my opponents' minor misplays.
And I like staring at pretty colors.
Yes, I play competitive. Well, if you can call it that.

I can understand not liking the art on some artifacts, a lot of them can be a bit bland. I do love the artwork some cards have for this game, the Ice Age Snow-Covered Swamp, Volrath's Dungeon, and Smokestack especially. I try to appreciate the art separately from the effectiveness, which has given me the awkward situation of going for cards I don't need, and ones I hate the look of :|
I really love the look of Shardless Agent, but Shardless BUG and I don't get along as well as I'd hoped we would. But the deck is super pretty, and especially if you search out to get each of the different artworks for Hymn to Tourach!

Have you considered a more traditional Tempo style? For instance I think an updated Canadien Thresh style would suit that quite nicely.

I can understand. There are decks that seem quite nice, that I just can't get into too.
And pretty colors do make it better.

I think I can relate to the both of you, to a certain degree. Earlier I would've called myself a Black/Green Mage, now, I've come to the more 'Grey' side of things. Hmm... B/W somehow pulls me in and keeps doing wondrous magic - which brings me closer to a new take on this.
What is your opinions on 'Orzhov Charm?'
Bounce the Sculler to Exile a card forever?

How would the charm exile the card forever? Wouldn't any of the effects on it cause the sculler to leave play and return the card that was removed to the opponents hand?

Originally I was an Azorius player, but I quickly turned out to love mono-Black, but I never shook off my love for White and Blue, so I just kind of wound up Esper I'd say.
Orzhov Charm is an interesting option, and I kind of like it.

And Refugeanoth, the way it works is by maintaining priority after Sculler's enter trigger, and casting it in response. Bouncing it activates the exit trigger, meaning it resolves before the enter, thus exiling the card permanently.

Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Seems to me like a waste of 4 mana for a single card removed from the hand from the game... You're also losing a body on the board, but hey, it's still wacking something directly out of their hand and removing it forever.

It's an excessive play, but neither of the cards are bad to play regardless. The likelihood of getting both isn't all that much, but it's an interesting play that could eventually happen.

Aye. I tried to make sculler work in my affinity deck, but I couldn't justify the use of the mana for it when compared against Baleful strix and its interactions with top and another flying target for cranial plating. White and black makes some very interesting card combinations though. Very disruptive. Not my style, but cool all the same.

It'll take a fair amount of mana, but the Orzhov Charm also have other choices - Destroy target creature, lose life equal to its toughness, or bring me back my D-Rite's. Mainly, though, I want the Tidehollow combo, but yes, the odds are not in my favor for that particular play

Thanks for the feedback, guys =)

Could increase the chances of using that combo by bumping the numbers to 4 for each? And no problem. Love tweaking like this :)

Orzhov Charm is, in my opinion, the sideboard charm. It does certain things VERY well, but those things are situational, so it's a little finicky. I run a charm/entomb package in my Iso-Seek sideboard right now and it works....Like a charm.

*YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRZ781Pm5Mg

Couldn't help it...

If you ever play games of EDH or casual multiplayer against me, you'd know how much I like tangle wire.

Tangle Wire is one of the best cards in multiplayer, but I can't stand how much hatred it draws :|
http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/lemon-dealbreaker.gif

I don't care in EDH though, there are so many evil things being casually tossed about that I feel like I'm not doing it right if I can't make people despise each card I play.

The playset of Gerrard's Verdict just came with the mail today, and man they look awesome =D
Also, the last cards in my Budget~ish second-ever B/W EDH cards too ! Call me a happy camper, I'm manic-light, haha. Summer's slowly approacing and it is just allllll gooood ^_^
Tomorrow there's WNM at my shop, and I'm bringing my new EDH hoping that it will see some action.
Also can't wait to playtest this, although - since you've mentioned it, Jens, I've been thinking like mad, trying to implant 2-3 Hymn to Tourach, but what should I remove, almight wizards and witches?

Thanks for the acknowledgement for the Wire's - They can be extremely frustrating to play against, and I have the possibility to 're-cycle- them forever via Crucible + Buried Ruin, bwah hah haaaaa...!!!

That laugh sound like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9xLoTXC5fk

They are pretty epic!
And NICE! Need to check that out... Hopefully after finals I'll have time to look more :|
I would go down to two copies of the Verdict, and run a two three split, going down to seven for your Extirpate effects. But that /could/ be counterproductive.

I absolutely freaking LOVED doing that when I ran them in my Pox deck! It was one of the ways I could get away with being so mean in multiplayer, because if you weren't playing combo, it's not like you were going to hit me
http://i.imgur.com/iZb4d.gif

That laugh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs

It is a fast paced-long game winner, designed to extract all the opponent's key cards, but I actually playtested this Wednesday, and it turned out to be a heavy suicide deck instead ! Definitely didn't see that coming, so it is actually up for a redesign !
I was thinking of adding 2 x Smokestack and some other goodies, but for it will have to be in the future, when I get some dough to buy, thanks, though, for your comment ^_^

What are the issues that lead to it killing itself?

Hey man =)
Well I was fortunate enough (remember sarcasm, haha) to pull no less than 3(!) City of Brass along side Surgical Extraction and a Godless Shrine. I brought myself so low of life, that my opponent, firstly, forced me to sac via a Desecration Demon and next he simply attacked for the kill.

The new design it coming shortly, I'm almost consumed by it so much thinking and planning... Quite amusing if you like to be quasi-psychotic and maniacal-light '0_0;
"What to keep, what not to keep?!"

So, today we visited my in-laws and my wife's Grandfather, that break was needed, and summer is slowly approaching here in DK - I already know that 2014 is gonna' be much much more awesome than 2013

Keep on rocking, guys - thank you for all the input you've offered - I'll post the changes to this, shortly =)

After reading that, you might be better running a straight up "Pox" deck.
Dark Ritual, Smallpox, Pox, The Rack, Hymn to Tourach, Inquisition of Kozilek, Bloodghast, and, if you can afford them, Liliana of the Veil.

Quite frustrating to play against because you simply have no resources left after only a few turns.

Yeah, I was making a Pox~ deck, although I lack some of the cards, it is the closest I have to a complete Legacy deck (which means: without proxies)
I have made a few 'Stox' decks, but the mono-B is drawing me closer ^_^

Yeeeeees, give in to the Pox side! *a totally unbiased third party observer* :P

This deck is his inoculation. If the inoculation is successful, he'll find a way to make a new upper tier deck; if it fails, he'll become a pox player. Or, I guess, he could become a host, both making this a top tier deck as well as playing pox every now and then.

By Blackfire's post yesterday, it does seem like the latter two are closest to being true.

Bl@ckfir£_Phoen¿x!!!! DON'T LET THE POX CONSUME YOU! BUILD A MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP THAT BENEFITS BOTH THE PLAGUE AND THE PROLIFERATION OF THIS ARCHETYPE!

Haha, well said. Though bear in mind, that I don't see Pox as a "Lazy-Man's" deck, but yesterday I was. all. tapped. out. The batteries just hadn't more juice in them, plus, I'm currently building a B/W EDH, and I needed so much from this. Also since I'm not wealthy - the only reason I could build most of this was a small donation from my family - I can't do both, and I'm choosing the EDH based on the fun and, yes - joy, that comes with EDH ^_^

Maybe someday I'll refurbish this and it will serve me better than before =)

Ah well :-P
EDH is very fun.... but I only have 2 decks: one for multi player/THG doubles tournaments and one for 1v1 tournaments.

Another bear in my mind, my English & Composition professor who loves my poetry says that I appear not to think how others interpret my writing and should, therefore, focus extensively on tone. I'm lazy and content with a B.

We all have default decks for when brewing becomes too difficult. Stasis decks are a pain to win with, and my mono black pox brew deck hits rock bottom barely never, so I often default to dredge. Regardless of the deck, we each have a "lazy man's deck." Your lazy man's deck is not Pox, and mine is not Pox, and mine is Dredge.

Well, I got off-topic, but oh well.

I hope your batteries have more juice next time and that they aren't all spent. Though, that does require recharging, unless they do that on their own and it was only a cloudy day.