B\G Kin-Tree- budget

nice deck :))

Thinking Wall of Mulch is better than the Parapet. It sacks itself for a card, which can also trigger the Bloodsucker.

I like the beast master, but he just seems so fragile... a 3 drop for a 2\1 body? Also in my playtesting I found that I don't typically have a lack of cards with the Read the Bones, Wall of Mulch, and Scrying from Reaper...

He plays into dictate and reaper plus since he is not the biggest threat on the board will either draw wasted removal or get through unblocked. He's passive card draw, which is amazing.

Maybe would do better in a bolster deck.

I love drawing cards- it's probably my favorite thing, and passive card draw is great... but without the Dictate or the Reaper, he's an overcosted 2\1. I guess the question is how many cards do you need to draw off him for him to be considered "good"- 1 just replaces him.... maybe 2? And there's no way, aside from being the only creature on the board that he ever triggers himself.... but to entertain the idea, what would you swap out?

I would say if you drew 2 cards off of him he's done his job. He is a bit pricey but it's likely you will have a wall of mulch or a disowned ancestor down prior to playing him.

I'd take out one read the bones and put one beastmaster, or if I were to run 2 of those guys take out a kheru I think. Reasoning is that the beastmaster has a good chance of netting at least 1 card and potentially more draw than read. The kheru is good but does not proc itself easily, although 2 beastmasters may be more detrimental than one.

As I said it may do better in a bolster oriented deck where it won't stay 2/1 forever, not that those are competitive.

Hmmm- I beleive you are correct that he wouldn't be my first creature on the board, but he will always be the easiest to kill... granted, if they were worried about my drawing cards they would have to spend their removal on him instead of the Bloodsucker.... and I'd be reluctant to cut a Blooduscker- mid to late game he really is an all-star... I guess the question would be is he better than a Read the Bones? A definite 2 cards w\ the scry of 2 for 3 mana and 2 life vs a 2\1 for 3 that will give me an extra card when I have the greatest toughness on the board......

That is a good question. I'm not really sure, that is why I suggested only 1 or a max of 2. It does give board presence, as well, but read is very good. He allows drawing if you are tied for the greatest toughness as well, which you will likely have unless a siege rhino comes down.

Every turn he lets you draw a card makes him that much more of a target. Your deck is in it for the long-game, so he might have some value or might be removed quickly. Unsure!

So here's another question-if we're considering a "1 of", is it worth it to run him as a 1 of- compared to say.... Nissa, or Garruk? Typically I feel a random 1 of should be of the game changer value... otherwise you should probably run more than just 1 of him and try to make him a more consistant part of the deck...

Nissa and Garruk are both incredible but you put the budget tag on so I didn't suggest anything so expensive! I would definitely run Nissa or Garruk over abzan beastmaster.

A 1 of should definitely either be a game changer or just a replacement (such as replacing a read the bones). For instance, lots of decks run one reclamation sage, it's not particularly great if there is no artifact or enchantment out but in the current meta is likely to do SOMETHING.

LOL I totally forgot I had the budget tag on it.... I suppose I should remove that tag since it's crept up to almost $80.... not that $80 is expensive compared to the majority of other decks. That won't even cover the land in some decks... and that would explain why I didn't include the Temple either... >facepalm< I wonder how much they would bump the cost.... again >facepalm< (just did a check- w Garruk and the lands it bumps the cost about $50)

But I do agree with you about the 1 of at least replaceing itself... and the Sage is a really good example. Truth be told, I've been running this online but w\o the Dictates yet... I added them because the board state does typically get mucked up and they are cheap as well. I was considering Palace Seige to get the last few points of damage through, but wasn't too sure about it.

Personally, I consider $80 "budget", lol. It's not $300 for some of the top8's so it looks pretty budget and lots of fun.

Palace Siege would actually be pretty awesome, if you can play it. It's 5 mana but having that option of grabbing from your graveyard or pinging for damage is really nice.

Test it out??

I think I might- once I can get my hands on a couple... after the pre-release is done online, and the cards are available I can't imagine it'll be more than .15 of a ticket... I have to wonder if I'll swap out the Dictates (they're getting tested first since I already have them) for the Seiges, or maybe find a way to fit in a pair with the Dictates... a pair of 5cc enchantments are a pain in the ass, but I don't think I could lose if I have both out and a Wall of Mulch.... you'd have to play 2+ creatures a turn to do anything... but it still is 2 5cc enchantments...... it's possible that the pair of Dictates is enough to break through the stalemates, but we'll see.

So I did some testing this weekend and the Dictates did very well. It's still a very grindy style game though. It's tough to take a turn off to play it on their turn\ end step, but it's not very often you see it in an opening hand... and mid to late game you have the mana to do more than one thing a turn- aka play the Dictate, play a Wall, sac a wall.... also, the Bloodsucker is amazing late game. With a rather large board stalemate vs Abzan midrange and against an opponents 24 life total, I played a second Bloodsucker- 6 sacraficed creatures late the game was over. I hadn't seen a Dictate that game either... also, I don't have all the sideboard cards for MTGO so it's tough to get an accurate feel for how they work. I def get to 5 black devotion so the Erebos plays a role that I don't get to see online.

Was Abzan your toughest match-up?

Bloodsucker seems really good late game, may have to explore this deck too!

Yeah, of the games I played, Abzan was the toughest... but to be honest, I was in the Just for Fun section for MTGO... It did run Rhinos, Caryatids, Coursairs, Charms, and Fleecemane Lions... I didn't feel like I was playing a watered down version so... I did end up losing, but only on time... and just starting game 3.

This deck wrecks sleigh\ mono red... I see a lot of those decks online and never have an issue. It really pays to Outlast a turn 1 Ancestor- if you don't have the T2 Invocation or Wall.... btw- both those turn 2 plays are real trouble for them. And if you hit a game 1 Flayer, you're on easy street. Game 2 you bring in the extra Flayers and the Drown in Sorrow and take out the Dictates and a couple spot removeal spells. I'd like to play against the R\W Agro, because they run heavy removal of the non damage variety... Chain to the Rocks and Valorous Stance seem like trouble.

And yeah, the Bloodsucker late is insane. And if you have some bigger threats on the board to deal with first, he slips under the radar. So now the new question- if he's really good late, do I want to run 4 of him? OR cut him to 3? Or just not play him early? I've found that if he's my T3 play he's usually eating a Magma Jet or Lightning Strike... but then again, this deck does walk the agro\mid range template line pretty close... I mean, it's def midrange, but Deathdealer is an agressive card, and the 4\4 Kin-tree play is an aggressive play... so if I can follow up with a T3 Bloodsucker after 4\4 Kin-tree... that seems like the right play.... I know I don't follow the T2 Death Dealer with the Bloodsucker, but..... ugh- what to do with that spot..... (and don't say beastmaster! :-) lol)

You could run a single reclamation sage if you cut the bloodsucker down to 3. Theoretically you should be running into plenty of targets for it, with

I also just thought of something I should have recommended over beastmaster a long time ago: Grim haruspex. Much better in this deck since you self sac. It's basically guaranteed card draw in your deck.

Yeah, when you mentioned the Sage in a previous comment, it got the wheels turning... it's good against the Whip, Doomwake Giant, Asendency, Chained to the Rocks, Coursar.... yeah, I think that's a really strong play. I think I'll make that change. Good call!

And I really like the Haruspex... I think that's another discussion though- him vs Beastmaster... passive but circumstancial vs triggered. I think he'd be better in a monoblack agro type deck with some sort of recurring creature- like Bloodsoaked Champion- that you just send to his death and then activate to do again next turn. Or running Palace Seige... HA! Or maybe a U\B agro with them and the Bident... take the damage and let us draw a card or block and let us draw a card... lol or something with a couple random pump spells... I don't know if you can brew around him specifically, but maybe as a part of something. But yeah, that card appeals to me as well. I think that the Sage is better in this case since our card draw is pretty solid with the 4 RTB, 3 WoM, and Scry with the Reaper, and he gives us a splash of versatility... but now my wheels are turning for a deck with the Haruspex... lol

Yeah, I could add white- but I think they call that deck Abzan Midrange or Abzan Agro... :-) Adding Seige Rhinos, Abzan Charms, Wingmate Rocs, and maybe the Fleecemane Lions- all good cards, and all work really well with the theme. However, they blow the budget tag right out of the water and make it a deck that's already been built. I prefer to go rogue with my brews...

no i came up with the deck a long time ago, its still budget still very much rogue. Adding white wives you some awesome cards that synergize well. i dont know why you surmised the above.

Well, it's just that adding white gives you Abzan colors... and the Rhino's and Rocs synergize well, and the Lion can get to 4 toughness, and the Charms are just good... and all those cards are played in the Abzan decks. I wasn't trying to slight your deck or idea, but when I think of adding white, those cards come to mind because they are some of the best cards in the format AND they fit what the deck is going for. I feel that it's tough to brew a deck that uses rogue cards that's just a slightly different version of one of the T1 decks. For me, that would feel like playing a tweeked version of an Abzan deck instead of 2 color rogue brew. I'm interested in seeing your list, so if you still have it, post a link- or just comment what white cards you would use. I'm all about the discussion (as shown above with my disussion w\ Polis about the Abzan Beastmaster) and potentially improving the deck- and that includes if it meant adding a 3rd color.

http://www.mtgvault.com/jaybond/decks/928128/

wall of essence gives a little bit of sustainability, sacking outlet for wall of mulch, athreos is awesome in this deck. acendancy has great synergy.

There are definately some good interactions with a bunch of those cards, but what would you switch out to add the white? And do you think that adding the white will make the deck better? How much will it lessen the chance of the turn 2 4\4? It would probably push it to a turn 3 4\4... And what about the mana base? I think switching it to Abzan colors might make it too expensive... What do you think?

Let me tell you what I do really like.... Champion of Stray Souls and Dictate of Erebos. Aside from it being a pair of high casting cost spells, the potential there is really strong. If you could get that combo on line and consistantly... and if you built it with the walls and the Bloodsucker.... every turn you would just switch creatures in the graveyard with creatures on the board... make them sack their team again and again and again all while losing life while you gain life... and if they kill your Champion, you just reload him on top. I may have to explore a build like that...

yes champiion is an investment, but late game its a beast. With abzan ascendancy, dictate of erebos, athreos and bloodsucker its insane. but with the third colour (white) i have ascendancy the poops out tokens when i sac or chump, triggering athreos, bloodsucker, dictate. athreos is awesome in this deck. all the cards have amazing synergy with each other. try it out though.

Yeah, I've been toying with a build with him and the Dictate for a bit, but haven't had any success. The problem I'm having is with that the cards around it- how to get creature cards in the yard, and what creatures, and how to just stay alive...

But do you think it's worth it to retool this deck to add white? And if so, how is it possible to not include cards like Siege Rhino? A 4\5 body is perfect for the Invocation, and certainly triggers the Bloodsucker. And then I feel like I'm playing a water down Abzan Midrange deck..... *sigh* lol

The white in your deck idea was there from the start and not a G\B deck that's trying to add it, right? I just don't know if the cards you have in your build would be interchangeable enough to make fitting into this deck without this deck being totally overhauled... you know what I mean?

siege rhino is nice but unessecary. wall of essence gives life, and can be sacked with wall of mulch. but if athreos is out, you gain life, chump block and goes back in your hand. so cards like that help you stabalize. it was in from the beginning. i wanted to get aas much synergy from my deck as possible. sack creature / draw card/ make 1/1 flyer/ gain 2/ Drain 2/ either put back in my hand or opponent takes another 3.

take out deathdealers, have a total of 4 of reaper or flayer. (4/0, 2/2 or 0/4) reclamation sage should be sideboard, take read the bones out. that gives you 8. also cheap white exile cards exist.

So what white cards would you add? In your build you have the white for Abzan Ascendancy, Wall of Essence, and Athreos. You think that those 3 cards (12 spots total) would make this deck better? And you feel that those 3 cards are better here than Read the Bones, the Deathdealers, and the combination of Reaper of the Wilds and Flayers?

My problem with your substitutions is that you're taking out several key cards of the deck. The Deathdealers are multi-purpose cards. They are good in any phase of the game: early, mid, or late- and they are very difficult to get rid of if you play them correctly. So combined with the Disowned Ancestor, and Wall of Mulch, they are the early stabilizing cards. The Flayers are to my deck what your Wall of Essence is to yours. My supplementary life gain, but also can turn sideways to get in for damage. And the Reapers act as both offense and defense. Hexproof lets him avoid removal, and the Deathtouch means he isn't going to the graveyard alone. Holds off Siege Rhino by himself with no trample damage, and for one black mana, takes it down. And you need card draw in this deck. Wall of Mulch isn't enough to continue to fuel the threats. In your build, you have the recursion of the Champion as well as the spirit generation from the Ascendancy to keep pumping out threats. I need to keep drawing cards.

I think that the white in your deck makes sense, but I don't think adding the white in mine does- at least not for the same cards that work in yours. That's why my initial thought for cards using white were the Rhino's, Rocs, and Charms... all 4+ toughness fit the theme, and card draw plus counters to act as utility. You're build is def rogue, but I don't think the white cards from your build work here.

i have flayers and reapers in mine ,just put them both to a total of 4 . wall of mulch draws you cards. and you can throw in grim haruspek. i ve played this deck for a while. it kicks ass. Athreos is enough to throw in the white. He does so much. play test it.

i cant wait!!! I'm sure this can be very competitive. and we did it first!!. Im keeping dictates.

I like the Dictates- a lot, but what did you take out? Maybe the Flayers?

I sure did! Actually, I hadn't seen the Sight card, but that's ok :-) I REALLY like Assault Formation here. It really works here. It makes the Disowned Ancestor a beater at any time- Not just a sac target late game, but a 4 power beater for 1 mana... oh, it's so nice. Turn 1 Ancestor, Turn 2 Assault Formation swing for 4! LOL That's a turn faster than the Kin-tree play on 2 and swing on 3. I may have to bump the Ancestor count back up to 4...

I do want to try and get the Dictates back in, but there isn't much space....

Swapped out the Sultai Flayers for 2 Dictate of Erebos