Asturonethorius

So got my password to work. Swear I tried this password over and over without it working, so dont know why its working now all of a sudden, thats why I had to make a new account.

Couch I dont think your being too harsh at all.

At best Werewolves is somewhere between tier 1.5 to tier 2, with the potential for better IF with the RIGHT BUILD, AND IF get either 1,2,3 better werewolves, 1,2,3 better enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers, better instant speed removal, better protection from removal board wipe, that would help.

At best with Red Green barely splash blue, with 4 birds, 3 Mayor 3 Daybreak Ranger 2, 3 huntmaster 2,3 Instigator Gang, 2,3 Immerwolf 2,3 Phyrexian Metamorph, 2,3 Green Sun Zenith, 2,3 Garruk Relentless 3 full Moon's Rise, 3 Moon Mist 3 Volley: I didnt copy this deck from pro Brian Kibbler. Its just coincedence that me, brian Kibbler made the same exact deck. Brian Kibbler finished in 16th to 32 place in standard Format Pro GP/World Championship, out of about 100 to 250 to 500 players.

I stomped Delver, Wolf Run Titan and other top decks in 1 of the Most Competitive FNM's, against the netdecking of top decks, against lical, gamestore, city, convention, etc. Its best finish for me was a special event local open tournament with about 85 to 93 players, with some of tge most toughest top decks, with some of the toughest players, about 1 to 3 of which are high ranked, compete in PTQ. Against that I finished in 4th place with this deck in standard, after about 3,4,5 to 5,6,7 rounds, 3 games per round. The deck wasnt cheap, and cost about $365 at the time to make.

That's the deck that this deck keeps on beating

Now I know this is a modern format deck beating a standard format deck, so not a true comparison, but still.

But thats the best werewolves have done. Between Tier 1 and tier 1.5 to tier 2 at best

Like I said this deck is a bit slow, especially against the top decks, best players, toughest, highest tournament levels.

Even if I were to build it perfectly, I am not sure I would want to take, play this at a PTQ, etc

But compared to ALMOST ALL the other werewolf decks on this and other sites, this is 1 of the better, best, top werewolf deck builds, amongst, then about 83% to 93% of the werewolf on this and other sites. I have seen, playtested, a lot of other werewolf decks, on this, other sites, and they are not good and not as good as this deck.

As far as your alternatives for direct damage removal:

Here is what I need:

1. Able to remove up to x/5 creatures

2. Able to remove 2 creatures instead of 1 which can be crucial to getting werewolves thru to deal big damage, or to prevent big damage.

3. INSTANT SPEED so that I can pass/Skip turn FLIP werewolves, then DURING OPPONENTS TURN Cast Direct damage removal spell

4. Do damage to opponent, as that combined with werewolf attacks can finish off opponents

Now all that by Volley is worth the 3 mana

Is 3 mana to much? Maybe, might, maybe even probably so

But is there anything else that can do all that what Volley does, for cheaper, 1,2 mana? I dont know, and I dont think so.

If only there was a 2 mana spell exactly like Volley, or if only Flame slash could do 5 damage instead of 4, and could target creature or player for 1,2 red.

So what does Roast do?

Anyways thanks for the help, comment

So got my password to work. Swear I tried this password over and over without it working, so dont know why its working now all of a sudden, thats why I had to make a new account.

Couch I dont think your being too harsh at all.

At best Werewolves is somewhere between tier 1.5 to tier 2, with the potential for better IF with the RIGHT BUILD, AND IF get either 1,2,3 better werewolves, 1,2,3 better enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers, better instant speed removal, better protection from removal board wipe, that would help.

At best with Red Green barely splash blue, with 4 birds, 3 Mayor 3 Daybreak Ranger 2, 3 huntmaster 2,3 Instigator Gang, 2,3 Immerwolf 2,3 Phyrexian Metamorph, 2,3 Green Sun Zenith, 2,3 Garruk Relentless 3 full Moon's Rise, 3 Moon Mist 3 Volley: I didnt copy this deck from pro Brian Kibbler. Its just coincedence that me, brian Kibbler made the same exact deck. Brian Kibbler finished in 16th to 32 place in standard Format Pro GP/World Championship, out of about 100 to 250 to 500 players.

I stomped Delver, Wolf Run Titan and other top decks in 1 of the Most Competitive FNM's, against the netdecking of top decks, against lical, gamestore, city, convention, etc. Its best finish for me was a special event local open tournament with about 85 to 93 players, with some of tge most toughest top decks, with some of the toughest players, about 1 to 3 of which are high ranked, compete in PTQ. Against that I finished in 4th place with this deck in standard, after about 3,4,5 to 5,6,7 rounds, 3 games per round. The deck wasnt cheap, and cost about $365 at the time to make.

That's the deck that this deck keeps on beating

Now I know this is a modern format deck beating a standard format deck, so not a true comparison, but still.

But thats the best werewolves have done. Between Tier 1 and tier 1.5 to tier 2 at best

Like I said this deck is a bit slow, especially against the top decks, best players, toughest, highest tournament levels.

Even if I were to build it perfectly, I am not sure I would want to take, play this at a PTQ, etc

But compared to ALMOST ALL the other werewolf decks on this and other sites, this is 1 of the better, best, top werewolf deck builds, amongst, then about 83% to 93% of the werewolf on this and other sites. I have seen, playtested, a lot of other werewolf decks, on this, other sites, and they are not good and not as good as this deck.

As far as your alternatives for direct damage removal:

Here is what I need:

1. Able to remove up to x/5 creatures

2. Able to remove 2 creatures instead of 1 which can be crucial to getting werewolves thru to deal big damage, or to prevent big damage.

3. INSTANT SPEED so that I can pass/Skip turn FLIP werewolves, then DURING OPPONENTS TURN Cast Direct damage removal spell

4. Do damage to opponent, as that combined with werewolf attacks can finish off opponents

Now all that by Volley is worth the 3 mana

Is 3 mana to much? Maybe, might, maybe even probably so

But is there anything else that can do all that what Volley does, for cheaper, 1,2 mana? I dont know, and I dont think so.

If only there was a 2 mana spell exactly like Volley, or if only Flame slash could do 5 damage instead of 4, and could target creature or player for 1,2 red.

So what does Roast do?

Anyways thanks for the help, comment

So got my password to work. Swear I tried this password over and over without it working, so dont know why its working now all of a sudden, thats why I had to make a new account.

Couch I dont think your being too harsh at all.

At best Werewolves is somewhere between tier 1.5 to tier 2, with the potential for better IF with the RIGHT BUILD, AND IF get either 1,2,3 better werewolves, 1,2,3 better enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers, better instant speed removal, better protection from removal board wipe, that would help.

At best with Red Green barely splash blue, with 4 birds, 3 Mayor 3 Daybreak Ranger 2, 3 huntmaster 2,3 Instigator Gang, 2,3 Immerwolf 2,3 Phyrexian Metamorph, 2,3 Green Sun Zenith, 2,3 Garruk Relentless 3 full Moon's Rise, 3 Moon Mist 3 Volley: I didnt copy this deck from pro Brian Kibbler. Its just coincedence that me, brian Kibbler made the same exact deck. Brian Kibbler finished in 16th to 32 place in standard Format Pro GP/World Championship, out of about 100 to 250 to 500 players.

I stomped Delver, Wolf Run Titan and other top decks in 1 of the Most Competitive FNM's, against the netdecking of top decks, against lical, gamestore, city, convention, etc. Its best finish for me was a special event local open tournament with about 85 to 93 players, with some of tge most toughest top decks, with some of the toughest players, about 1 to 3 of which are high ranked, compete in PTQ. Against that I finished in 4th place with this deck in standard, after about 3,4,5 to 5,6,7 rounds, 3 games per round. The deck wasnt cheap, and cost about $365 at the time to make.

That's the deck that this deck keeps on beating

Now I know this is a modern format deck beating a standard format deck, so not a true comparison, but still.

But thats the best werewolves have done. Between Tier 1 and tier 1.5 to tier 2 at best

Like I said this deck is a bit slow, especially against the top decks, best players, toughest, highest tournament levels.

Even if I were to build it perfectly, I am not sure I would want to take, play this at a PTQ, etc

But compared to ALMOST ALL the other werewolf decks on this and other sites, this is 1 of the better, best, top werewolf deck builds, amongst, then about 83% to 93% of the werewolf on this and other sites. I have seen, playtested, a lot of other werewolf decks, on this, other sites, and they are not good and not as good as this deck.

As far as your alternatives for direct damage removal:

Here is what I need:

1. Able to remove up to x/5 creatures

2. Able to remove 2 creatures instead of 1 which can be crucial to getting werewolves thru to deal big damage, or to prevent big damage.

3. INSTANT SPEED so that I can pass/Skip turn FLIP werewolves, then DURING OPPONENTS TURN Cast Direct damage removal spell

4. Do damage to opponent, as that combined with werewolf attacks can finish off opponents

Now all that by Volley is worth the 3 mana

Is 3 mana to much? Maybe, might, maybe even probably so

But is there anything else that can do all that what Volley does, for cheaper, 1,2 mana? I dont know, and I dont think so.

If only there was a 2 mana spell exactly like Volley, or if only Flame slash could do 5 damage instead of 4, and could target creature or player for 1,2 red.

So what does Roast do?

Anyways thanks for the help, comment

1. I do not have the time, money, ability, etc, to play in a PTQ, GP, etc.

2. Even if you put up the money, it would be hard to get the money to me, arrange travel, etc.

3. Even if you could do above, I cant afford to pay you back.

4. I am a better deck builder then player. Example: In a 115 player standard tourney, I had a werewolf deck finish in 3rd, 4th place, beat wolf run titan, Delver. But should have finished 2nd, instead of 4th, and would have if I hadnt made several play mistakes. Because of that I am not a good enough player to pilot even the best deck(not talking about this deck), at a top tourney.

5. If you want to test the deck, you can build the deck, sleeve it up and take it to a top tourney, and play it yourself.

6. The deck is still semi consistent, semi inconsistent, variable, volatile, in that in 10 PTQ’s it could easily do well in 1 PTQ, while totally bombing the other PTQ’s. So because of that 1 PTQ, is not accurate even if the deck were to do well.

7. I didnt say the deck would win 75% if the time. I said it would win about 49.9% of games, and finishing in 200th place out of 600 is not 75%, is not great. To finish in 200th place you have to win 50% of your games in your 3 game matches, and at least win at least 50% of your matches. Thats accurate, because in a FNM I finished in 8th place out of 43 players , where I won about half my games in 3 game matches, and won about half my matches.

Thinking of running 1 phrexian Metamorph, and 1 Progenitor Mimic, since they are both similar, but 1 cheaper cmc. That way with only 1 6 cmc, instead of 2, its better on the mana curve, speeds up the deck, metamorph can be paid without blue, come out turn 2,3,4, and with both cards, its still like a 2 of, in 2 creatures that copy, just the same as like 2 metamorphs, 2 progenitor mimic.

Also with 3 birds, 3 lands that produce any kind of mana including blue mana, thats 6 sources that produce blue mana in addition to any kind of any other color mana. Because of that, little to no problem getting blue mana to pay for mimic, while not messing up mana base for other stuff

I have, had been busy, so wasn’t able to respond. Now to many comments to respond to, so not going to respond, as my position should be clear, even if it isnt clear to some.

I made some wholesale changes. While not a kitchen table casual deck, the deck was still inconsistent, winning/losing about 50/50 almost no matter who, what it played. If it turned on,clicked, it played awesomely. If didnt click,turn on, it didnt play as good. And it didnt have good having a bad draw, game recovery, so if was having a very bad draw, etc, it was game over.

Because of that there was just too many needed pieces, and not enough deck slots at close to around about 60 cards.

Also I decided to try to again fit in Liqui metal Coating, to again try to male it work, because of what Dedward, and what some of my friends like Leo, Joel, etc, suggested, said about how I should add Liqui Metal Coatings, and because my 39 + 1 , likes deck had liqui Metal Coatings.

Now the problem I had with Liqui Metal Coatings, was 2 of them was not enough, 3 was better but still not consistent enough, and even 4 of them was not consistent enough, why drawing 2, 3 of them sometimes too consistent in that way. There was not enough room to add Ancient Stirrings.

And if didnt add non liqui metal Coatings based land destruction cards that didnt destroy lands by turning lands into artifacts, destroying them, then the liqui metal coating didnt come out, and couldnt do anything, no land destruction.

And if added regular land destruction, then neither the regular land destruction worked, came out, and liqui metal coating did come out and still couldnt do anything destroy lands consistently.

But that was with a deck that was 60,61,62 cards. There just wasnt enough room for everything needed, to add liqui metal coatings to deck.

So even tho going with 67,68 cards would make the 2 ofs, 3 of’s, even 4 of’s slightly less consistent, in a deck that needs consistency, the gping to 67,68 cards allows all the needed parts, cards, ratios, consistencies, etc , to be added. And with 6, (2 brutalizer exarchs, 2 Primal Commands, 2 incendiary commands), cards that make it so that draw, tutor, search, reuse, etc, the 2 ofs 3 ofs 4 ofs are consistent enough now that the deck has all the needed parts despite being at 67,68 cards.

And the Liqui Metal coatings doesnt come out to often or to little. It comes out most of the time, and the times it doesnt come out, the regular LD destroys lands, creatures, turns 1,2,3. And the liq metal coatings comes out destroys lands, creatures, 1,2,3. And can mulligan to easily, regularly destroy lands, creatures turns 1,2,3.

There are 27 LD cards. 20,21 regular LD cards, 11 liq metal coatings LD, artifact destruction cards, and 5 LD cards that give choice between destroying lands without coatings, or destroying lands, creatures, with coatings card.

And there are 15 creature destruction cards if use coatings, and 7 creature destruction cards, if dont use coatings.

Affinity, horde, swarm, infect, still destroy this deck game 1, sometimes game 2, but with sideboard, good play, etc, sometimes wins game 2, and usually wins game 3.

Control is about 50/50, and about 55 to 45 in favor of this LD deck, IF play well, bait, switch, and if no bad draw, and if sideboard.

Against midrange, combo decks, is where this deck truly shines. Naya Midrange, Kiki Chord, Jund midrange, Tron, Wolf Run Titan like, Werewolf, etc, loses somewhere between some to almost most of the time against this LD deck.

Also this deck crushes, destroys, etc, stompy, beat down decks.

Also decks that land ramp drop lands like crazy destroy this deck game 1, win, lose half the time game 2, lose game 3 vs this LD deck, if use sideboard.

Also burn decks generally lose to this LD deck, unless they are Valakut, drop a lot of lands, but not if use sideboard against them.

This deck wins ALL THE TIME NEVER EVER LOSES IN KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL.

Against weak FNM, this deck will, should top 3 to top 7 regularly.

Against strong FNM, this deck will, should top 6 to top 11 regularly.

Against city, state, convention, regional tournaments, will, should finish about 9th to 17th place.

Against PTQ: should: 19th to 37th place(75 to 185 players)

Against GP grand prix: should : 40th place to 70th place( 175 to 435 players)

Against Pro Tour: Should : 65th to 125th ( 333 to 650 players)

Against Pro Tour World Championship: Should: 100th to 200th ( 650 to 1300 players)

The above projections are assuming usual, normal good, great, best performance, finish scenarios.

If the deck gets unlucky, has bad draws, etc, the deck would probably finish a lot lower, do worse, especially against the best competition, and not so against the weaker, average, above average, semi good, good, maybe even semi great competition.

And even if, when deck loses against the best competition, the deck should be a semi tough, semi dark horse, semi spoiler, semi level the playing field, semi competitive, deck , that gives opposing decks all they can handle, while even if in a losing effort. That will stall, draw matches out, that will send expensive cards to graveyards, that can cause a 1st place deck, player, to just barely by skin of teeth get beat, dropped down to 3rd place, while deck finishes in 9th to 90th place depending on number of players.

Thats just how I honestly project the deck to do after playtesting hundreds, thousands of sample hands, sample games, simulations, play test games vs some great players, decks, 7 to 13 modern format, and standard format with a similar deck, FNM’s, against some of the best FNM competition, players in the country.

The deck has beaten Tron, Kiki Chord, Naya Midrange, Jund Midrange, Control, Tempered Steel, Werewolves, Wolf Run Titan, Delver, in play test games. The deck has beaten, destroyed Brian Kibblers 16th, to 32 nd place werewolf deck in a play test game where Brian Kibblers deck finished and in 16th to 32 nd place in a pro tour event the best highest finish ever by a werewolf deck.

The deck tho has never been played at city, state, county, regional, convention, PTQ, PRO TOUR etc, etc, so the above projections are just that what are honest reasonable logical extrapolated based on playtesting results projections. So the projections are just projections, and are not proveable, have not been proven.

The Deck is NOT the best. AT ULTIMATE BEST the deck is maybe one of the better, best Land destruction decks out there compared to all the crappy, casual, Kitchen Table, FNM, semi tourney land destruction decks, that dont destroy lands until turns 3,4,5, that dont destroy creatures, that dont get win con out, etc, unlike this good, great, maybe better, maybe 1 of best land destruction decks.

The deck is somewhere between a tier 1.5 to tier 2 deck at ultimate best. This deck is definately NOT a kitchen table, not a casual deck, and is a tournament worthy version of a Land Destruction deck. By tournament worthy, not saying best, just that it is a tournament version, that at least semi competitive in tourney play.

The deck should be fun to play in tournaments, to enjoy watching expensive decks send expensive lands, creatures, planeswakers, etc to graveyard

I have, had been busy, so wasn’t able to respond. Now to many comments to respond to, so not going to respond, as my position should be clear, even if it isnt clear to some.

I made some wholesale changes. While not a kitchen table casual deck, the deck was still inconsistent, winning/losing about 50/50 almost no matter who, what it played. If it turned on,clicked, it played awesomely. If didnt click,turn on, it didnt play as good. And it didnt have good having a bad draw, game recovery, so if was having a very bad draw, etc, it was game over.

Because of that there was just too many needed pieces, and not enough deck slots at close to around about 60 cards.

Also I decided to try to again fit in Liqui metal Coating, to again try to male it work, because of what Dedward, and what some of my friends like Leo, Joel, etc, suggested, said about how I should add Liqui Metal Coatings, and because my 39 + 1 , likes deck had liqui Metal Coatings.

Now the problem I had with Liqui Metal Coatings, was 2 of them was not enough, 3 was better but still not consistent enough, and even 4 of them was not consistent enough, why drawing 2, 3 of them sometimes too consistent in that way. There was not enough room to add Ancient Stirrings.

And if didnt add non liqui metal Coatings based land destruction cards that didnt destroy lands by turning lands into artifacts, destroying them, then the liqui metal coating didnt come out, and couldnt do anything, no land destruction.

And if added regular land destruction, then neither the regular land destruction worked, came out, and liqui metal coating did come out and still couldnt do anything destroy lands consistently.

But that was with a deck that was 60,61,62 cards. There just wasnt enough room for everything needed, to add liqui metal coatings to deck.

So even tho going with 67,68 cards would make the 2 ofs, 3 of’s, even 4 of’s slightly less consistent, in a deck that needs consistency, the gping to 67,68 cards allows all the needed parts, cards, ratios, consistencies, etc , to be added. And with 6, (2 brutalizer exarchs, 2 Primal Commands, 2 incendiary commands), cards that make it so that draw, tutor, search, reuse, etc, the 2 ofs 3 ofs 4 ofs are consistent enough now that the deck has all the needed parts despite being at 67,68 cards.

And the Liqui Metal coatings doesnt come out to often or to little. It comes out most of the time, and the times it doesnt come out, the regular LD destroys lands, creatures, turns 1,2,3. And the liq metal coatings comes out destroys lands, creatures, 1,2,3. And can mulligan to easily, regularly destroy lands, creatures turns 1,2,3.

There are 27 LD cards. 20,21 regular LD cards, 11 liq metal coatings LD, artifact destruction cards, and 5 LD cards that give choice between destroying lands without coatings, or destroying lands, creatures, with coatings card.

And there are 15 creature destruction cards if use coatings, and 7 creature destruction cards, if dont use coatings.

Affinity, horde, swarm, infect, still destroy this deck game 1, sometimes game 2, but with sideboard, good play, etc, sometimes wins game 2, and usually wins game 3.

Control is about 50/50, and about 55 to 45 in favor of this LD deck, IF play well, bait, switch, and if no bad draw, and if sideboard.

Against midrange, combo decks, is where this deck truly shines. Naya Midrange, Kiki Chord, Jund midrange, Tron, Wolf Run Titan like, Werewolf, etc, loses somewhere between some to almost most of the time against this LD deck.

Also this deck crushes, destroys, etc, stompy, beat down decks.

Also decks that land ramp drop lands like crazy destroy this deck game 1, win, lose half the time game 2, lose game 3 vs this LD deck, if use sideboard.

Also burn decks generally lose to this LD deck, unless they are Valakut, drop a lot of lands, but not if use sideboard against them.

This deck wins ALL THE TIME NEVER EVER LOSES IN KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL.

Against weak FNM, this deck will, should top 3 to top 7 regularly.

Against strong FNM, this deck will, should top 6 to top 11 regularly.

Against city, state, convention, regional tournaments, will, should finish about 9th to 17th place.

Against PTQ: should: 19th to 37th place(75 to 185 players)

Against GP grand prix: should : 40th place to 70th place( 175 to 435 players)

Against Pro Tour: Should : 65th to 125th ( 333 to 650 players)

Against Pro Tour World Championship: Should: 100th to 200th ( 650 to 1300 players)

The above projections are assuming usual, normal good, great, best performance, finish scenarios.

If the deck gets unlucky, has bad draws, etc, the deck would probably finish a lot lower, do worse, especially against the best competition, and not so against the weaker, average, above average, semi good, good, maybe even semi great competition.

And even if, when deck loses against the best competition, the deck should be a semi tough, semi dark horse, semi spoiler, semi level the playing field, semi competitive, deck , that gives opposing decks all they can handle, while even if in a losing effort. That will stall, draw matches out, that will send expensive cards to graveyards, that can cause a 1st place deck, player, to just barely by skin of teeth get beat, dropped down to 3rd place, while deck finishes in 9th to 90th place depending on number of players.

Thats just how I honestly project the deck to do after playtesting hundreds, thousands of sample hands, sample games, simulations, play test games vs some great players, decks, 7 to 13 modern format, and standard format with a similar deck, FNM’s, against some of the best FNM competition, players in the country.

The deck has beaten Tron, Kiki Chord, Naya Midrange, Jund Midrange, Control, Tempered Steel, Werewolves, Wolf Run Titan, Delver, in play test games. The deck has beaten, destroyed Brian Kibblers 16th, to 32 nd place werewolf deck in a play test game where Brian Kibblers deck finished and in 16th to 32 nd place in a pro tour event the best highest finish ever by a werewolf deck.

The deck tho has never been played at city, state, county, regional, convention, PTQ, PRO TOUR etc, etc, so the above projections are just that what are honest reasonable logical extrapolated based on playtesting results projections. So the projections are just projections, and are not proveable, have not been proven.

The Deck is NOT the best. AT ULTIMATE BEST the deck is maybe one of the better, best Land destruction decks out there compared to all the crappy, casual, Kitchen Table, FNM, semi tourney land destruction decks, that dont destroy lands until turns 3,4,5, that dont destroy creatures, that dont get win con out, etc, unlike this good, great, maybe better, maybe 1 of best land destruction decks.

The deck is somewhere between a tier 1.5 to tier 2 deck at ultimate best. This deck is definately NOT a kitchen table, not a casual deck, and is a tournament worthy version of a Land Destruction deck. By tournament worthy, not saying best, just that it is a tournament version, that at least semi competitive in tourney play.

The deck should be fun to play in tournaments, to enjoy watching expensive decks send expensive lands, creatures, planeswakers, etc to graveyard

I have, had been busy, so wasn’t able to respond. Now to many comments to respond to, so not going to respond, as my position should be clear, even if it isnt clear to some.

I made some wholesale changes. While not a kitchen table casual deck, the deck was still inconsistent, winning/losing about 50/50 almost no matter who, what it played. If it turned on,clicked, it played awesomely. If didnt click,turn on, it didnt play as good. And it didnt have good having a bad draw, game recovery, so if was having a very bad draw, etc, it was game over.

Because of that there was just too many needed pieces, and not enough deck slots at close to around about 60 cards.

Also I decided to try to again fit in Liqui metal Coating, to again try to male it work, because of what Dedward, and what some of my friends like Leo, Joel, etc, suggested, said about how I should add Liqui Metal Coatings, and because my 39 + 1 , likes deck had liqui Metal Coatings.

Now the problem I had with Liqui Metal Coatings, was 2 of them was not enough, 3 was better but still not consistent enough, and even 4 of them was not consistent enough, why drawing 2, 3 of them sometimes too consistent in that way. There was not enough room to add Ancient Stirrings.

And if didnt add non liqui metal Coatings based land destruction cards that didnt destroy lands by turning lands into artifacts, destroying them, then the liqui metal coating didnt come out, and couldnt do anything, no land destruction.

And if added regular land destruction, then neither the regular land destruction worked, came out, and liqui metal coating did come out and still couldnt do anything destroy lands consistently.

But that was with a deck that was 60,61,62 cards. There just wasnt enough room for everything needed, to add liqui metal coatings to deck.

So even tho going with 67,68 cards would make the 2 ofs, 3 of’s, even 4 of’s slightly less consistent, in a deck that needs consistency, the gping to 67,68 cards allows all the needed parts, cards, ratios, consistencies, etc , to be added. And with 6, (2 brutalizer exarchs, 2 Primal Commands, 2 incendiary commands), cards that make it so that draw, tutor, search, reuse, etc, the 2 ofs 3 ofs 4 ofs are consistent enough now that the deck has all the needed parts despite being at 67,68 cards.

And the Liqui Metal coatings doesnt come out to often or to little. It comes out most of the time, and the times it doesnt come out, the regular LD destroys lands, creatures, turns 1,2,3. And the liq metal coatings comes out destroys lands, creatures, 1,2,3. And can mulligan to easily, regularly destroy lands, creatures turns 1,2,3.

There are 27 LD cards. 20,21 regular LD cards, 11 liq metal coatings LD, artifact destruction cards, and 5 LD cards that give choice between destroying lands without coatings, or destroying lands, creatures, with coatings card.

And there are 15 creature destruction cards if use coatings, and 7 creature destruction cards, if dont use coatings.

Affinity, horde, swarm, infect, still destroy this deck game 1, sometimes game 2, but with sideboard, good play, etc, sometimes wins game 2, and usually wins game 3.

Control is about 50/50, and about 55 to 45 in favor of this LD deck, IF play well, bait, switch, and if no bad draw, and if sideboard.

Against midrange, combo decks, is where this deck truly shines. Naya Midrange, Kiki Chord, Jund midrange, Tron, Wolf Run Titan like, Werewolf, etc, loses somewhere between some to almost most of the time against this LD deck.

Also this deck crushes, destroys, etc, stompy, beat down decks.

Also decks that land ramp drop lands like crazy destroy this deck game 1, win, lose half the time game 2, lose game 3 vs this LD deck, if use sideboard.

Also burn decks generally lose to this LD deck, unless they are Valakut, drop a lot of lands, but not if use sideboard against them.

This deck wins ALL THE TIME NEVER EVER LOSES IN KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL.

Against weak FNM, this deck will, should top 3 to top 7 regularly.

Against strong FNM, this deck will, should top 6 to top 11 regularly.

Against city, state, convention, regional tournaments, will, should finish about 9th to 17th place.

Against PTQ: should: 19th to 37th place(75 to 185 players)

Against GP grand prix: should : 40th place to 70th place( 175 to 435 players)

Against Pro Tour: Should : 65th to 125th ( 333 to 650 players)

Against Pro Tour World Championship: Should: 100th to 200th ( 650 to 1300 players)

The above projections are assuming usual, normal good, great, best performance, finish scenarios.

If the deck gets unlucky, has bad draws, etc, the deck would probably finish a lot lower, do worse, especially against the best competition, and not so against the weaker, average, above average, semi good, good, maybe even semi great competition.

And even if, when deck loses against the best competition, the deck should be a semi tough, semi dark horse, semi spoiler, semi level the playing field, semi competitive, deck , that gives opposing decks all they can handle, while even if in a losing effort. That will stall, draw matches out, that will send expensive cards to graveyards, that can cause a 1st place deck, player, to just barely by skin of teeth get beat, dropped down to 3rd place, while deck finishes in 9th to 90th place depending on number of players.

Thats just how I honestly project the deck to do after playtesting hundreds, thousands of sample hands, sample games, simulations, play test games vs some great players, decks, 7 to 13 modern format, and standard format with a similar deck, FNM’s, against some of the best FNM competition, players in the country.

The deck has beaten Tron, Kiki Chord, Naya Midrange, Jund Midrange, Control, Tempered Steel, Werewolves, Wolf Run Titan, Delver, in play test games. The deck has beaten, destroyed Brian Kibblers 16th, to 32 nd place werewolf deck in a play test game where Brian Kibblers deck finished and in 16th to 32 nd place in a pro tour event the best highest finish ever by a werewolf deck.

The deck tho has never been played at city, state, county, regional, convention, PTQ, PRO TOUR etc, etc, so the above projections are just that what are honest reasonable logical extrapolated based on playtesting results projections. So the projections are just projections, and are not proveable, have not been proven.

The Deck is NOT the best. AT ULTIMATE BEST the deck is maybe one of the better, best Land destruction decks out there compared to all the crappy, casual, Kitchen Table, FNM, semi tourney land destruction decks, that dont destroy lands until turns 3,4,5, that dont destroy creatures, that dont get win con out, etc, unlike this good, great, maybe better, maybe 1 of best land destruction decks.

The deck is somewhere between a tier 1.5 to tier 2 deck at ultimate best. This deck is definately NOT a kitchen table, not a casual deck, and is a tournament worthy version of a Land Destruction deck. By tournament worthy, not saying best, just that it is a tournament version, that at least semi competitive in tourney play.

The deck should be fun to play in tournaments, to enjoy watching expensive decks send expensive lands, creatures, planeswakers, etc to graveyard.

Wasn't talking about legacy, was talking about Modern, and in Modern, Remand, Negate, Mana Leak, Cancel, are the MOST PLAYED COUNTERSPELLS, and those particular counterspells are easily dealable with, which is why counterspell control isn't plated as much as other stuff in Modern.

I know full well how powerful LEGACY, VINTAGE control is, heck I even said that LEGACY FORCE OF WILL EARLY GAME EQUALS INSTANT SCOOP, as that's how powerful force of will is in Legacy.

But no matter how many times I have said that, you either misread it, twist it around in your head, spin it around I'm your head, get Legacy, and Modern mixed up so that think I am talking about legacy, when I was talking about modern,aada vice versa, etc, to where you put words in my mouth I didn't say, and or spin, twist what I say, etc, all because of either, an or assumptions you have made about what I said, an or not reading, skimming, etc, an or lack of comprehending what I said, meant, etc.

Now maybe I need to be shorter, clearer, etc, in what I write, but your assumptions, skimming, not reading, twistimg, spinning, putting words in my mouth,nnt remembering, bad reading comprehension, whatever, whichever it is, is not good.

Ok found a way to squeeze Thoctar back in, by running 2 Birds, and 2 Simian Spirit Guides as 4 mana ramp dorks, and adding 1 more slot to go to 64 cards, 24 lands.

Your right that it says TYR 1 in the title, ALBEIT with a QUESTION MARK. I actually tried to put TYR 1.5 in the title, but was too long, the thing wouldn't let me do, say that, so instead of saying TYR 1.5, I left it at TYR 1, With a Question mark at the end.

In the description I did say that the goal of the deck is to be a TIER 1.5 TYPE OF SPOILER, DARKHORSE, ROGUE TYPE OF DECK, that level the playing field, compete with, against TIER 1 DECKS.

Compete, level the playing field, spoiler, darkhorse, rogue, etc, does not necessarily mean always beat the best decks.

It mean giving the best decks a real fight, competition, run for their money, win or lose, where some of the time beat the better, best decks, and some of the time lose against the better, best decks

As an example if what I am talking about.

Back in Worldwake, Scars, Zendikar Standard format block. And in the Innistrad Standard block, I made a Standard format Land destruction deck, that was a dark horse, spoiler, Level The playing field deck. It had about a 50/50 chance of winning no matter who, what deck I played. It won about 49.9% of its games, no matter what deck it faced.

Because of that the deck often beat the tournament winning decks, while finishing in 7th, 8th, 9th place at best, to 17th to 19th place at worst, out of about 49, 59,69,79 players. No deck, no player wanted to play my deck, especially the top deck in 1st place, because my deck might beat them knock them from 1st place to 3rd, to 4th,5th place. It was very satisfying, to hear them complain about their EXPENSIVE LAND CARDS GOING TO THE GRAVEYARD, and their EXPENSIVE DECK losing to a cheap land destruction deck, that finished 16th place, that knocked them from 1st place to 5th place.

THAT DECK WAS COMPETITIVE. AND IT DID LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, AND IT GAVE EVERY TOP DECK A FIGHT, RUN FOR ITS, THEIR MONEY, BEAT SOME OF THEM, LOST TO SOME OF THEM.

THAT KIND OF THING IS THE GOAL OF THIS DECK, IN ALL MODERN FORMAT TOURNAMENTS, AND THE DECK WILL PROBABLY DO THAT.

Also why not sideboard Tunnel Ignus for either more Land destruction card slots preferably, an or something else, seeing as Tunnel Ignus is only useful to stop those put into play 2 to 6 lands per turn decks, which usually, or not always played, so can sideboard against those kind of decks instead of main board deck against those decks.

All in all + 1, like from me, since it is a legacy deck, with Pillage, and since a good control, removal deck with some Land destruction, splashed in.

Thanks for your constructive comment, I replied to it respectfully on my deck page. I agreed with some of your comment, and disagreed with your comment. Not going to clutter your deck page with long responses. If you want to read my respectful response, you can at my deck page.

As far as your response to my comment here. I get that you only need 3 land. But even that 3 land, is going to have a hard time coming out with only 22 land in a 65 card deck. You need at least 24 land at the extreme very least, in a 65 card deck to get at least 3 lands out. At least that's what me, others have consistently seen.

Now got a question, how does 65 cards run for you, in your land destruction deck? I would like to add 2,3,4 BOLTS, FLAME SLASH, LIGHTNING AXE, ETC, as a plan B, on those rare times deck either doesn't destroy land 1st 3 turns, and or fizzles out. but to do so, I will not have enough land destruction cards, and can't take finishers out, and can't take Vat out, and can't take Eternal witness, land destruction cards out. So the only way I can think of would be to cut 1 land destruction card, and add 1,2 more non land card slots, and add 1 more land to go to about 63 cards, 24 lands, to 64 cards, 24,25 lands, to 65 cards, 25 lands, in order to squeeze in 2,3,4 BOLTS, ETC as a plan B. But the concern I have if I did that, is would going to 63 to 64 to 65 cards water down the decks ability to get out 8 mana dorks to ramp stuff, or would the deck still get out the 8 mana dorks, Boom, Molten Rain, Stone Rain, etc, consistently enough to still consistently destroy lands, 1st 3 turns.

Is the trade off to get the plan B BOLTS, ETC, worth it?

That's why I am asking you how 65 cards works in your deck.

That was my point, that only 1,2, of them are worth playing, and or are actually consistently played. Most on that list are not played. Therefore if you ask most of us about 1 cmc counterspells in Modern, most of us are going to say there is ABOUT 1,2,3 cmc counterspells in Modern, because that's all that's ever seen, an or mean that's the only stuff played,an or forget, an or sometimes wrong about the exact number of them in the format. The point I was making was valid that 1 cmc counterspells are not a worry in MODERN FORMAT. They are a worry in Legacy, Vintage, because all of them are played regularly very effectively, like Force of Will. In Modern Format you typically see REMAND, MANA LEAK, NEGATE, CANCEL, etc, and that ca be dealt with. In Legacy, 4 force of Will, and other stuff early, = SCOOP. That usually doesn't happen in Modern.

Kassong 1. Again for the ZILLIONTH time, I did not say deck, land destruction deck was tier 1. I said it was TIER ONE POINT FIVE BETWEEN TIER 1 AND 2 AT THE BEST, AND THAT IT'S A DARKHORSE, SPOILER, LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD DECK, THAT WOULD FINISH ABOUT 9TH TO 13TH TO 17TH TO 27TH PLACE AT PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ AT BEST.

2. There have only been 4 to 8 critics in the minority. Of those critics, 1,2, maybe 3 of them have been HECKLERS.

3. Razzan is a good example of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and I treated him just fine. HECKLING HECKLERS IS NOT MISTREATING THOSE WHO HAVE GIVEN CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

4. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS SEEING ME HECKLE HECKLERS LIKE PUSCHIN, and getting it all twisted around in your head,where you misunderstand, seems to your wrong perception, that I am supposedly saying things I didn't say, and am supposedly heckling constructive criticism, when I am not.

5. I have actually agreed with some of the constructive criticism, suggestions, and actually too some of the suggestions. If I hadn't the deck wouldn't look like it does as of now.

6. If people behave like Razzan, there won't be problem.

Razzan, the reason why you think the mana base is a problem, is because(not saying your doing this), some think that splashing a 3rd color is a problem. And or you don't see that with all the FETCH LANDS, DUAL LANDS, there is no trouble getting the right mana needed. Maybe 1 game out of 10 to 15 games, it is a problem if don't mulligan. There are 4 Wooded foorhills, 4 blood stain Mire that can fetch any of the 7 dual lands, comprised of Stomping Ground, BLOOD CRYPT, OVERGROWN TOMB, ETC, add to that Birds, Simian Spirit guides, and it's rare that don't have the right kind of mana to cast double red Molten Rain, or double black to cast Befoul, and double green to cast Acidic Slime. Mana base is just fine. I have playtested enough sample hands (about 100 to 1000), to see that it the mana base works just fine.

As far as the 1 of Charmbreaker, not only can I fetch it, but if it is destroyed. I can Mimic Vat it. I can fetch it from graveyard with Eternal Witness, and I can shuffle it into deck, with Primal Command, then fetch it from deck, then put it back into play. Also Charmbreaker usually swings for game in 1,2, turns, and usually removal is used before, and not saved for charmbreaker, and usually takes 2, 3 turns to destroy charmbreaker, so usually get at least 1 swing with charmbreaker, before he gets destroyed. Also only running 1 charmbreaker, allows me to run Goblin Dark-Dwellers, and Thragtusk. If they get rid of Charmbreaker, then there i thragtusk, and Goblin Dark-Dwellers to worry about.

Also it's not just the turn 1 BOOM. There is turn 2 BOOM, or TURN 2 MOLTEN RAIN, STONE RAIN, WRECKING BALL.

The 8 mana dorks in conjunction with Boom, is what makes 3,4 cmc land destruction cards work. Also it's in how you play it. There are sometimes you shouldn't destroy land turn 1, even when you can. Because sometimes if destroy a land turn 1 with BOOM, MOLTEN RAIN, STONE RAIN, with 1 or 2 SPIRIT GUIDES turn 1, your right that without those spirit guides, the deck fizzles out.

But if you hold onto those spirit guides, then you use 1 turn 2 to destroy a land, then turn 3 destroy a land, and by turn 4 you probably won't need them anymore.

But I can guarantee you, that between the 7 mana dorks, BOOM, MOLTEN RAIN, WRECKING BALL, 8 FETCH LANDS DARKSTEEL CITADEL, ETC. ALL COMBINED, WORKING TOGETHER, THAT DECK CONSISTENTLY DESTROYS LANDS TURNS 1,2,3, WITHOUT FIZZLING OUT, MOST OF THE TIME, IF YOU PLAY IT RIGHT, AND IF YOU MULLIGAN OCCASIONALLY SEMI AGGRESSIVELY.

That's not to say there won't be the occasional time deck won't destroy a land first 3 turns, an or fizzle out occasionally, as that will happen occasionally, once in a super great while.

So if didn't have the 8 mana dorks, and BOOM and Molten Rain, and Stone Rain, etc, then you would be right that I would need cheaper cmc cards then 3,4 cmc land destruction cards.

Also your right that the deck needs a plan B, in case land destruction doesn't happen 1st 3 turns, without FIZZLING out.

And your right that in order to have a plan B, I would need cheaper cmc cards

The problem with that tho, if I run something like BOLT, as a plan B, those 3,4 BOLT, would lower the land destruction count, from 23 land destruction cards, to 19, 20 land destruction cards. A land destruction deck needs 21,22,23,24 land destruction cards, or the deck won't destroy lands consistently, and opponents will be then more likely to have 2,3 lands out, and get more creatures out. To keep them from doing that, deck needs at least 21,22,23,24 land destruction cards.

I really don't see how run 3,4 BOLTS, FLAME SLASH, LIGHTNING AXE, ETC, WITHOUT CUTTING 3,4 LAND DESTRUCTION CARDS, which would cause the deck to not work.

If you could find room for that, without cutting 3,4,5, etc, land destruction cards, without cutting the Mana Dorks, without cutting VAT, without cutting Charmbreaker, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Thragtusk, Exarch, Eternal Witness, then I am all ears for that.

Also this deck has destroyed, beaten the tar out of PRO BRIAN KIBBLER'S 16TH PLACE AT PRO TOUR WEREWOLF DECK, consistently.

Thanks for your comment, and being constructive in making your points. I agree with some, and disagree with some. Your a good example for others to follow.

Again you are putting words in mouth that not said. I did not say ALL, or EVERY of the 3,4 to 6,7 in the Minority that have criticized, are hecklers. ONLY 1,2, maybe 3 have been HECKLERS. the other 3,4,5 of the 5 to 8 in the Minority who have criticized deck, have been constructive.

And there have been those who do like, think the deck is good, great. There are about 2,3 of them who have made comments here, per each of the critical comments. It's just their comments have been buried in the 130 comments here. Then there is the 9 likes the deck has gotten. Then there is the 13 +1's at another MTG site, and about 13 to 17 comments there that say the deck is great. And only 1,2 critics of the deck at that other site. And They Were Better behaved, And More constructive, And Actually Helped Make The Deck better. So not going to take the time to make a list,when can go see for yourself.

Again I am not saying deck is going to win the, or finish top 8 at GP, PTQ, etc. But a 9th to 17th place at best at GP, PTQ, is logical, reasonable. Part of that is that BRIAN KIBBLER A PRO MADE A WEREWOLF deck that finished 16th place at PRO TOUR, GP, etc. A long time ago I made almost the same exact werewolf deck, almost card for card as BRIAN KIBBLER'S deck. I didn't copy his deck, he didn't copy my deck. The reason why I am going into this, is THIS LAND DESTRUCTION DECK BEATS BRIAN KIBBLER'S THE PRO'S WEREWOLF DECK ALL THE TIME CONSISTENTLY, that finished 16th place at the PRO TOUR. so based on that since this deck destroys the 16th place at PRO TOUR deck,this deck should be able to finish 13th to 27th place at the PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ.

A KITCHEN TABLE DECK, CASUAL, FUN DECK WONT DO THAT WELL, WONT CONSISTENTLY BEAT BRIAN KIBBLER'S DECK.

A KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL, FUN deck are those LESSER land destruction decks, that do not destroy land until turns 3, 4, 5,6. Do not have a win con. Or can't get win con out. And doesn't have creature removal, an or doesn't destroy creatures. My land destruction deck destroys lands consistently by, on turns 1,2,3 instead of turns 4,5,6 like crap decks, and destroys creatures turns 3,4,5,6,7 unlike crap deck s. And so is better then lesser, crap, kitchen table, casual land destruction decks.

This deck would win, top 5 the lesser FNM's, and would top 5 to top 9 the more competitive, toughest FNM's, and would top 9 to top 11 to top 13 city, conventional, competitive tournaments, and top 11 to top 14 to top 17 regional events, and top 13 to top 27 PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ events.

The Deck Is A darkhorse, spoiler, Level The Playing Field Semi competitive, TIER ONE POINT FIVE TO TIER 2 ROGUE DECK AT BEST. AND IT IS BETTER THAN ALL THOSE LESSER LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS.

This deck is about the equivalent of WEREWOLF, MILL, DISCARD, ANY OTHER TIER 1.5, TIER 2 TIER 2.25 ROGUE DECK.

AND ROGUE DECKS ARE BETTER THEN YOU THINK, ARE NOT CRAP FNM, CASUAL, KITCHEN TABLE DECKS, and are BETTER then crap, casual FNM, Kitchen table decks.

LAND DESTRUCTION, ROGUE DECKS, LIKE THIS DECK, ARE BETWEEN DECKS. WAY TO GOOD FOR KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL,FNM, and ALMOST good enough, but just barely, by skin of teeth, not quite good enough to consistently top 8 to top 13 at a PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ CONSISTENTLY.

That's why BRIAN KIBBLER'S WEREWOLF DECK FINISHED 16TH AT BEST, and 23rd to 32nd place, most of the time, which is where TEMPERED STEEL finished, another ROGUE deck at the time.

Oh and that's another thing. Land destruction, with a sideboard beats tempered steel in a 3 game match. I used to play a lesser different variant version of this deck, and used to beat tempered steel in games 2, game 3, of 3 game matches,consiatently. Yeah it destroyed deck game 1, but after sideboard, it win games 2,3. Tempered Steel typically won on turns 3,4, unless you stopped, slowed them down, board wipe them by turns 2,3,4. And if you did that the deck typically ran out of steam by turn 6,7, where midrange, control would take over.

1. Well if by competitive you mean making decks that consistently finish 1st place thru 4th place in Pro Tour, GP, PTQ, you may probably could be right. But if not mean that, and mean top 5 to 7 to 9 of ANY competitive MODERN FORMAT TOURNAMENTS, that not GP, PTQ, etc, or top 10 to top 20 to top 25 at a GP, PTQ, then I would have to disagree with you.

As far as constructive criticism goes,if its logical, etc, and if it rebuttles, refutes with logic, if I were to disagree, and give logic, why I disagreed, then I do take that particular kind of constructive criticism.

Now there only has been 3,4,5,6,7 who have not thought the deck was, is great. They are in the MINORITY, as MOST do think this deck is great.

Of those who have been critical, 1,2, maybe even 3 of them have been PUSHY, acted like KNOW IT ALLS, HECKLED, INSULTED, BELITTLED, ETC, MADE MANY SUCH COMMENTS.

Because of that there was PUSCHBACK from me, to them, and of course they are NOT going to be listened to, agreed with by me, because the were not using logic, they were, are in minority, and they were HECKLING. So I HECKLED THEM THE HECKLERS.

1,2,3 of some of the critics that in minority, have actually been CONSTRUCTIVE. I have agreed with some of what they said,and disagreed with some of what they said.

I even took, used some, but not all of their suggestions.

I suggest before you make baseless accusations, comments that you really understand, find out what was, is going on before you misunderstand, ASSUME, ACCUSE, ETC, WHEN YOU MAKE THE KIND OF COMMENT YOU MADE.

If going to have 65 cards, then need at least 25, 26, land, maybe even 24 land, 27 land would be ok. But 22 lands is way to few lands in a 65 card deck, unless you are planning to MULLIGAN extremely Aggressively.

Wish they would reprint pillage, make it Modern Format Legal. That would be great with 4 Acidic Slime, 4 Wreak Havoc, 4 Pillage, for 12 cards, in a Liquimetal Coatings deck, where if Liquid Metal didn't come out, could still use Pillage, Slime, Havoc to destroy land without Coatings, in case it didn't come out.

Also you seem to get MODERN FORMAT, LEGACY FORMAT, STANDARD FORMAT, MIXED UP. There is only 1 or 2 1 mana counterspells in Modern Format. And 1 of the 1 or 2 of them, counterspells, then gives opponent a 2/2 kind of like a beast within type of a card, except it counterspells, cost 1 cmc, and 2/2., instead of 3/3. If there is a 2nd, there is a 3rd one most of us don't count, play, because it is extremely LIMITED, like only countering artifacts, or only countering enchantments, or only planeswalkers, or only creatures, or only instants, etc, for 1 cmc.

It's LEGACY THAT HAS A LOT OF 1 CMC COUNTERSPELLS THAT ARE NOT LIMITED.

Modern Format only has 1 or 2, 1 cmc counterspells that are not limited, and 1 of the 1 or 2, 1 cmc counterspells in Modern Format, that's not limited, has a bad side effect of giving a opponent a 2/2. The 3rd, 1 cmc counterspelll in Modern is LIMITED to 1 or 2 types of things it can counter

Also your missing the point, that there is a lot of COUNTERSPELL HATE CARDS IN MODERN FORMAT THAT NEUTER, SHUT DOWN COUNTERSPELLING THAT SHUTS DOWN COUNTERSPELL DECKS IN MODERN