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u/g natural order and show n tell for legacy
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Have you thought about Omniscience? Or Griselbrand? Another card to help ya go off sooner would be elvish spiritguide. A lotus pedal, elvish spiritguide and any land is a turn one show and tell. But as I've told ya before, Although i know they are effective i know, A deck that is based on one card being played to win always scares me, If that card gets disrupted, extracted, or you cant draw it then your deck is done. ya know?
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thats why im playing natural order AND show n tell. that way it gives me possibilities. early game i get the jive of which direction i wanna go and go for it. i have 12 counters to help me get whatever plan i choose through but if the game does drag on i can usually run into one of the combos and try again. the thing is when you play a deck like this is, you dont care about tempo, or your opponents field advantage,or even your life really. your combo is a stabilizer and all of your effort goes into playing that combo. once that happens hopefully it puts the game into a state where its no longer winnable for your opponent.. of course backed up with counter magic decks that have lots of disruption can be troublesome and usually comes down to who has the right counterspell at the right time. dispel is amazing at stopping your opponents counters. spirit guide is sweet though my one buddy plays a UB omni-tell deck with grizzy and its pretty crazy, but i just dont think can squeeze those cards in here : / although they are really great
To tell ya the truth I have no idea how i missed natural order haha, Thats a sweet little card, i imagine to pull out worldspine wurm and progenitus? Yea i understand how nothing matters with decks like these about life or the opponents fields, pull out an emrakul and shit hits the fan hah... Kinda like a deck i have, ramp up to genesis wave or primal surge and nothing the opponent has or what anyones life total is matters anymore. I like this deck 100 percent more though now that i know about natural order and show and tell in it, they have really good harmony together depending on your creature choices and worldspine wurm and progenitus fit that area nicely. too bad you cant fit griselbrand or omniscience in there, but oh well, this deck is really good as is... Maybe sideboard elcish spiritguide for those games you need a little more boost and speed against a specific opponent, ya know. =p
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=378654 Here's my take on NO for Progenitus (made it before worldspine came out, i think i'd gladly run 2 of him in there too.)
iv done extensive testing with this, and for a while a ran 1 progenitus 1 worldspinewurm, but soon realized the worm has no real protection, and in almost every case progenitus was a safer way to seal the deal. both cards take 2 turns of swinging to win, except progenitus is much harder to deal with. also i ran into the problem of having progenitus in my hand when i wanted to play NO. so after lots of testing i took the wurm out for another pro. and worst comes to worst. pro can get pitched to force
As much as I love Natural Order, I just don't see a point any longer with Show, and Omni decks. Toss down Omni with Show, play Griselbrand, and its game over. Also Omni allows Emrakul's extra turn to hit Great build non the less. If you have a minute check out my Modern deck. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=400265
the problem those decks have are with consistency. in order for those decks to work they NEED show and tell. that gets discarded or countered and there whole game is over. have natural order and show and tell gives me more options and much much much more consistency. also running 2 sets of mana dorks almost ensures t2 show n tell or natural order. the sneak show decks, while they run 8 enablers as well, have to clutter there decks with big creatures to sack off with sneak attack and end up diluting the deck of its protection, and they run into the problem of comboing off, and still not sealing the deal. my buddy plays a UB omnitell deck and its fucking crazy. but he spends so much time trying to find show and tell most times, hes a sitting duck. or if his combo gets disrupted thats it. with this, if my combo gets disrupted, chances are im finding another combo piece asap and trying again. the consistency of this deck is staggering
Your correct about all the way these decks can combo off, this is the main reason I kinda stopped playing Legacy. Oh you disrupted my first crazy combo, no worries I have 3 more waiting for the next turn! LOL That being said I also play a NO deck. It's been doing very well with Worldspine Wurm. If they cant remove his, hes great. Its just another option along with Progenitus. I also just run R/G, with Price of Progress. That card hates on Legacy decks like no other. I also run 8 blast in the SB, no need for FOW.
ah, very nice. having those blasts musts help out so much. facing waves of counters can get old real fast. iv tried the wurm myself. it was in the original list, 1 wurm and 1 progenitus. and really what it came down to, was that both cards end the game in 2 turns. might as well play progenitus because it has better protection, and for me at least, i can pitch it to force. i also ran into the problem of wanting to NO into progen but he was already in my hand, forcing me to grab the inferior card. so i took out the wurm and opted for 2 progen. oh and its funny, legacy being so insane and broken is actually why i like it so much ^_^
consider mirri's guile its allot like brainstorm and divining top, also divining top is slower than brainstorm but you can top multiple times and you can combo fetchlands with top when you dont like the top 3 snap a land to shuffle and divine a new 3 also i dont tend to like natural order with show and tell, the show requires u to draw the fatties and the order requires you not to so you cant realy build your enabling side of the deck around one or the other, ive got a version using NO and defense of hte heart comboing with forbidden orchard also intuition would be your best search for NO or the other portal card you chose
I agree, Mirri's Guile is almost a no brianer in any green legacy deck playing fetch lands. I like having NO and SNT in the deck. Just incase you need a back up. They get a Never More to land or something of the like.
good thinking on mirri's guile. i did some testing with -1 ponder +1 guile and while it is a great card, i ran into a few problems with it, at least in this deck. for one, it doesn't actually draw you a card, and you have to wait till your next upkeep for its effect to kick in, which some of the time just doesn't cut it. also after a turn, without a fetch, its not really doing too much for you. so while it is a great card, and i actually use it in another deck i have, its just not fast enough here. same with top, great card, but i feel better suited to control decks maybe. iv been having great success running NO and SnT together. its proven to be incredibly consistent at getting a fatty out T2 or 3 and alot of T1s even. i feel like having 8 enablers and 8 cantrips means your finding something fast. also the synergy of playing mana dorks and show and tell has been surprisingly great. either letting me go off t2 pretty consistently, or letting me go off with more counter backup, or by helping me play through daze. also 2 enablers are harder to deal with than one. if one gets disrupted i can usually come back with another pretty fast defense of the heart is insane though. intuition i feel is better in sneak show because they need to restock fattys after sneaking them, and better in omni show because they only play 4 enablers. where as i have 8 so im usually fine with just the 8 cantrips and fetches to search for my pieces. ive been thinking of dropping a land though, and maybe a one of intuition could be pretty amazing. im gonna have to test it out. :D thanks alot for the input
The only thing I can think of that'd strengthen this in UG would be something like this. -1 Crystal Vein, and switch another to a third Ancient Tomb -1 Progenitus, a great finisher, but in NO Show I'd test around with more counters. But if having six finishers is needed for consistency, this suggestion becomes moot. -1 Spell Pierce +4 Daze, nothing quite like a "free" counter. I can't tell you how many games this card has won my UGx NO decks, and even more for my other decks. This is a very interesting build, and I personally think it has a good bit of potential, but because it reminds me more of Dream Halls|Conflux I'd probably go with an Omni-Show style of build if I make another S&T deck.
thanks for the great suggestions/ the main reason im running 2 progenitus is because i kept running into the problem of wanting to No into progen, but he was already in my hand >_<' i honestly feel like crystal vein is the most tech 2mana land. considering your only sacking when your about to go off. why bother hurting yourself with ancient tomb? that said.. sacking your land and getting your shit countered reeaally hurts. so you may be onto something. the original list was actually running something like -1 progen -1 natural order -1 crystal vein -1 petal +4 daze. but basically what was happening was i kept drawing daze at the worst time, when it would do nothing at all for me. and i was basically just bricking. there was games where daze saved my ass too. the problem iv been having is trying to figure out how much of an effect card changes like that have, over just plain good or bad draws. it seems to be running more consistantly now, with flusterstorm in the side as back against other decks with lots of counters and disruption. what bugs me about the omni show decks is that they only run 4 enablers. and are playing a 3 card combo over a 2 card combo. granted omniscience isnt really NEEDED. but gives them the extra turn with emmy and makes grizzy even more of a monster. i just dont like the idea of putting ALL my eggs in one basket like that. if SnT gets disrupted, its pretty much gg. although they do get a bigger disruption package from only running 4 enablers. so i guess it has its pros and cons. thanks again for the great advice
I really hate playing against these decks and I run into them all too often as I play mostly eternal.One variety that I've seen that really compounds the problem are the ones with Living Wish in the main and 1 Emrakul, 1 Blightsteel and 1 Ulamog, (for the mirror) in the sideboard. Now it just gets silly as you are certain to have the correct monster in hand whenever you feel like setting off Show and Tell.I'm a little surprised that you are not playing Gitaxian Probe and Pact of Negation, they are simply made for this kind of deck...
living wish actually is a pretty interesting idea for this deck!!as for probe, i already have brainstorm and ponder, and theres just no more room for cantrips :(im using force of will over pact of negation ^_^
Actually what I was eluding to is replace two Spell Pierce with two Pacts. You dont need counters for anything other then to protect you just before you go off and after that there is no next turn. The Probe does the same thing as well as being a cantrip, you will know what your opponent has in hand and if it safe to set it off, (it almost works a s a counter in the way that if you take a peek and they have nothing to disrupt it you dont even need a counter in hand as backup, just trigger it right there and then!). It actually works way better then Ponder overall...
actually, i play show n tell or natural order and i still need 2 more turns to swing. so pact doesn't do what your thinking for me. as for probe, seeing whats in the opponents hand is nice, but digging 3 cards deep for that elusive combo piece or counterspell, or being able to shuffle your library is more necessary here. playing probe is really more like playing a 56 card deck. the peek effect is cool, but not good enough to replace the power of ponder.i dont play this version anymore anyway. i play a BUG variant with deathrite shaman over hierarch, and added disruption via daze and thoughtseize http://www.mtgvault.com/alleywayjack/decks/legacy-bug-no-show/